Iran Seizes Two UK-Operated Tankers

Discussion in 'Middle East' started by APACHERAT, Jul 19, 2019.

  1. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I wasn't a big supporter of going into Iraq.

    The Bush administration wasn't following the Weinberger or the Powell Doctrines which required the Reagan military of 400,000 troops.
    Bush inherited the Clinton military and was only able to put 200,000 boots on the ground. Enough for regrime change but not for occupying Iraq and preventing a second war...the Iraq Insurrection.

    The war in Iraq was poorly executed and the U.S. military should never be used for nation building.

    But as the first American soldier crossed the line going into Iraq I had to support the troops because I still remember when my peers back home and the Democratic party back stabbed me and my fellow Marines and soldiers when we were still on the battlefields of Vietnam.
     
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  2. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

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    That's good--you'd have a shot at passing Social Studies 9.
    "Your enemies?" Uh oh. You slipped into jackass mode and called me a liberal again.
     
  3. flyboy56

    flyboy56 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    We wouldn't be in this situation if Obama had gone through congress. Something as important has the agreement with Iran should have been presented to congress for a vote. He shoved the ACA down America's throat with congress's approval and he tried to shove this agreement with Iran down America's throat but it didn't hold up because congress wasn't involved. Obama believed he was the smartest man in D.C. Trump showed him he wasn't.
     
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  4. Pisa

    Pisa Well-Known Member

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    Iranians can call sanctions on wherever the UK ship was heading, but doing it after the fact will not make detention of British ship legal. To be legal, an embargo must be publicly announced beforehand.

    An embargo is a legal prohibition on trade from one territory to another. In this particular case, oil export from EU territory to a certain Syrian businessman. A ship carrying the prohibited oil sailing to Syria from EU waters is in fact violating the prohibition, because it's taking the oil through territory where the law explicitly forbids this kind of trade. It's like taking marijuana from Canada, where it's legal, to a country like Iran, where people were executed for drug offenses. Do you think Iran would pat the guilty Canadian on the back and gently send him on his way with hugs and kisses?
     
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  5. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

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    What in the hell was the point of going in there at all?
    The people who sent you there to die for nothing in a no-win war were the ones who stabbed you in the back. Don't blame the guys who wanted to end it.

    Remember the Domino Theory that held we had to stop the commies in Vietnam or they would take all of Asia? Well, we didn't stop them and how much else did they grab?
     
  6. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The embargo is for oil being imported into Europe from Syria -there is no EU embargo of oil going "TO" Syria from other nations - But you already know this. You are just grasping at straws for some reason.

    There is no UN embargo/sanctions in play here - and you also know this.

    Iran was then not breaking any UN rules - nor did it violate the EU embargo. The seizure of the ship by the Brits was then just as illegal as the seizure by the Iranians.
     
  7. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

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    You try so hard, I suppose I should take pity on you. But you're so nasty, I don't think I will.
     
  8. Fred C Dobbs

    Fred C Dobbs Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    To rid the world of Saddam Hussein and WMD. He was a monster, as the \iraq courts established and then carried out his sentence. His last words were Allahu Akbar.
    In fact you've agreed that the war was won in 2011 until BHO pulled the troops claiming, for a while, that he had ended the war.
     
  9. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Regime change.

    Kinda the thing to do when someone tries to assassinate the POTUS and violates the ceasefire agreement and continuously for over eight years tried to shoot down British and American aircraft enforcing the no fly zone.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2019
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  10. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I'm pretty sure I wasn't killed over there.

    LBJ was my commander in Chief when I took the GCT that decided what my MOS would be and that as soon as I finished attending the Naval Gunfire School at the Naval Amphibious Base, Coronado, San Diego that I would get my WEST-PAC orders for Vietnam.

    If Nixon hadn't won the 68 election it was already in the pipeline that 100,000 more troops were going to be sent to Vietnam.

    The war in Southeast Asia could have been won and brought to an end in ...
    1965 if LBJ hadn't micromanaged the air war over North Vietnam.
    1968 if Walter Cronkite hadn't lied to the American people about the Tet Offensive of 68.
    1969 if President Nixon would have ignored the failed policies of LBJ that he inherited and did what Nixon did in 1972. -> https://www.nytimes.com/1988/04/10/...&gwh=CEEC1CA17C9E1F75D6157172D4EB3668&gwt=pay

    Domino Theory...
    First South Vietnam fell.
    Then Laos.
    Then Cambodia.
    Then the Democratic party as we remembered fell and went socialist when it was hijacked by the radical "New Left."
     
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  11. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I slam Obama all the time but, the ACA has nothing to do with the Iran deal so lets try to shoot arrows straight. Second - it was not just Obama involved in the Iran deal - our entire apparatus was involved from the Pentagon to our intelligence agencies - agencies who are still there under - the same people - and these people went along with the deal.

    That said - we could put some of the responsibility for Trump having to back out of a deal he thought was bad - on the previous admin.

    Backing out of the deal however is not the cause of the mess. Had Trump just done this and maintained US pressure - the mess would not be what it is. You should have been able to get this out of my previous post.

    It was Trump that did these things - things that had are not Obama's responsibility in any way. Trump was not forced to bully our allies - and other nations. Backing out of the deal did not require doing this.

    I have called Obama a supporter of Terrorism - including Al Qaeda and ISIS. I have stated that did a complete 180 on his stated beliefs and that "Hope and Change" turned out to be more of the status quo - and many other things. What I am not going to do however is blame Obama for things he didn't do.

    This is on the Trump admin. Obama did not force Trump to use the so called "nuclear option" - threatening our allies and others with their banks being removed from the system of international payments in order to force them to comply with sanctions.

    Perhaps you don't understand how serious this action was - and how damaging this action has turned out to be - and that is just on the basis of what has happened so far. The longer this goes on the more harm that is done.

    We need to get rid of this administration as soon as possible - 2020 can not come soon enough.
     
  12. flyboy56

    flyboy56 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The ACA and the Iran Agreement has everything to do with a president who believed he was the smartest person in D.C. The same president who thought we could keep our doctors under ACA and forgot to include building and testing ICBM's in the nuclear agreement.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2019
  13. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

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    There were no WMD and the world is filled with monsters.
    No, I didn't agree the war was won. A deal had been struck with the Sunnis in Anbar that was destined to come unstuck when we left.
     
  14. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

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    Don't be lettin' the door hit your rear on your way out.
     
  15. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You are in la la land. Desperately trying to blame Obama for Trumps problems - as if he is controlling Trumps actions like some puppeteer.

    Trump has the same problem as Obama but even worse - "thinking he is the smartest person in D.C" but regardless, Trump's actions with respect to his messing with the sovereignty of our allies and other nations has nothing to do with how dumb or smart Obama was.

    Second - it wasn't "Obama's deal". There were 5 other members of the security council involved - and they have to be involved. It is not like Obama had some ability to control these nations.

    These nations were bucking the sanctions at the time- and it is these nations that brought Iran to the Table - "NOT the US". If the US had its way there never would have been brought to the table. The fact of the matter is we wanted to continue the sanctions but we had no good choice other to do what Trump has done - or just ignore the whole thing and not shown up for the meeting.

    We could have not attended and these nations would have gone on without our input. There would be no sanctions on Iran - except from the US and this is useless as effective sanctions require a global commitment. It does no good for the US not to sell Iran some product when they can get it from 10 other places.

    Obama could have done what Trump did and tried to force Russia - China - Britain - France, Germany - and every other nation in the world to maintain sanctions - and it would have been just as stupid as this is picking a fight with the world - and you would be railing about what a stupid thing Obama did.

    Somehow - because it is Trump that did the stupid thing - you have these massive blinders on. If Trump took a dump in your back yard you would claim it smelled like flowers or something.

    You - and apparently the Trump administration - are living in a world where the US is the only game in town. While that was true a few decades ago - this is no longer the case. We used to just have to whisper our desires into the ears of other nations and they would come running to fulfill them. That is no longer the case.

    These guys way overestimated our position on the geopolitical chessboard - they played a move on this basis - and the move turned out to be a huge blunder.

    The result of this blunder is not "winning" - It has resulted in a losing position. How many examples would you like of us "LOSING" on the basis of these horrible miscalculations and flawed estimation of our position on the geopolitical chessboard.

    By any objective assessment of the position - again using chess terminology - we are getting crushed.
     
  16. Pisa

    Pisa Well-Known Member

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    I've already covered this.

    While there isn't an embargo on export of oil to Syria, there are sanctions on individuals and entities, including a ban on oil export to the Banyas Refinery in Syria.
    https://www.europeansanctions.com/2019/07/gibraltar-sanctions-laws-grace-1-designation/

    I didn't say the Iranian ship was in breach of UN sanctions. I only mentioned, in passing, that there are UN sanctions against Syria.
     
  17. ibobbrob

    ibobbrob Well-Known Member

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    The middle class becomes wealthy when members of the middle class earn enough moolah to be considered wealthy.
     
  18. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Then you punish the company receiving the oil in Syria - not engage in Piracy. There are no UN sanctions restricting oil shipments to Syria.

    Your argument is lost - and at best - if you stand by your argument - you then agree that If Iran was to embargo Europe - it would then be legal for them to seize ships going to Europe. Its mindlessness - and you know it.
     
  19. Mac-7

    Mac-7 Banned

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  20. aenigma

    aenigma Well-Known Member

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    seems to me Iran offers the easiest solution
    release the tanker in exchange for releasing the Iranian tanker

    unles the Uk is deliberatly trying to increase tension ofcourse
     
  21. notme

    notme Well-Known Member

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    I dont see how the law is on their side....
    demanding free passage for their ships through a strait controlled by Iran, but deny Iran free passage through a strait they control.
     
  22. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The only law Iran recognises is Sharia Law.
     
  23. notme

    notme Well-Known Member

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    So much for claiming around Iraq had WMD weapons. They just had chemical waist.
     
  24. notme

    notme Well-Known Member

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    The only law the UK recognizes is white thug colonial rule.
     
  25. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Iraq War Retroactively Justified By Discovery Of Weapons Of Mass Destruction

    BAGHDAD, Iraq – United Nations weapons inspectors have confirmed the announcement on Monday by the Iraqi government that its soldiers had finally discovered Saddam Hussein’s weapons of mass destruction program, completely upending the history of the Iraq War, once viewed as a pointless quagmire but now seen as a tough but necessary conflict.

    The New York Times became the latest news outlet to completely reverse itself on the invasion of Iraq, with an editorial now referring to it as “the greatest decision of the century.”


    The weapons, more than five thousand sarin gas artillery shells, six thousand gallons of anthrax, and two crude nuclear weapons, were located on Sunday in a previously-undiscovered bunker on the Syrian border by a pair of Iraqis who were using the structure as a makeshift toilet... -> https://www.duffelblog.com/2013/03/iraq-war-retroactively-justified-by-discovery-of-saddams-wmds/
    FYI:
    The Duffel Blog is kinda like CNN, fake news.



     
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