For examples of Christian and Jewish terrorism, you'll find plenty in Northern Ireland and Israel/Palestine respectively. But as this thread is about Islam, I suggest starting another thread if you want to discuss these matters any further. As for what people such as the official cleric in Mecca say, I suggest quoting what they actually did say.
No...see dear, that's not how REASONING works. I have said the Pope lives Christ's message as demonstrated by his life, I HAVE NOT said anything about anyone else's ANYTHING.... You're "by extension" is BS. I'm just asking for what a "believer" that isn't Muslim looks like. The fact you can't (rather WON'T) answer that speaks VOLUMES. There aren't any...are there...NOW we're getting to the truth of it.
Even if you got localized problems with Israel and Irland, this is geopolitical matters, you won't see large scale holy war organisation who may turn anyone of the oumma into a knife terrorist anywhere in the world. The fact that you hardly admit that Islam is based on a militant doctrine show that you are either lieing or doing propaganda. What sort of peacefulness beetwen religions can we have under the situation i told you later on. The muslims are the only one to resort on large scale global holy war in order to enforce their norms and value to the society they are welcomed in. Let it be Canada, Germany, England, all societies have trouble with their muslims minority, disproportionate conflict commarativly to their size. Chinese community ARE peaceful. Swedish minority ARE peaceful. Muslims one are not as peaceful as the others. What the goal of this thread tell me ?
There are what? Good Christians living Christ's message. Yes. I did say that. I have asked you where are there Good Christians according to MUSLIM views of "believers." Or Jews....You could cite a Jew or a Jewish sect that would be considered "believers" to Islam. Waiting..... ...your silly attempt at talking in circles to confuse the question just makes you look even less credible, by the way...
Yes you did, you said: Are these individual souls all over the place, or not? Oh, so you don't judge that non-Christians are doomed to eternal punishment?
I have repeatedly said, it is not for me to judge. So you'll be waiting a long time if you expect me to do so. But feel free to continue to judge individual souls all you want,... that's your decision. - - - Updated - - - That would depend on whether any particular Muslim decided to judge Billy Graham.
Sure they are! Good Christians are everywhere! Never Left just cited Billy Graham. I agree. No. God does that ultimately, but that is really between God and the individual. I can say there are some Christian folk who do not ACT according to Christ's message. For example: The Westboro Baptist Church clan. Still....I'm not going to HACK THEM TO PIECES as unbelievers. God will judge them--and maybe they will ultimately see Him face to face, because God is merciful. Again...we could list all day people who DO ACT according to Christ's message. Why can't you list any "believer" that is not a Muslim if you claim there are Jews and Christians that are "People of the Book?"
Well then, you have just judged Billy Graham and all the other individuals you speak of to be worthy of going to heaven. But if you believe that individuals who ''act according to Christ's message'' go to heaven, and everyone else goes to hell, then when you judge that individuals ''act according to Christ's message,'' you have judged them to be worthy of going to heaven. If you believe that individuals who don't ''act according to Christ's message'' go to hell, then by judging that those individuals are not ''acting according to Christ's message,'' you judge that they should go to hell. You can spend all day judging people if you want. Because as I have now said numerous times, it is not for me to judge. Unlike you, I don't judge whether any particular individual acts according to their respective religious teaching or not. But I will reiterate that according to the Quran, Christians and Jews who do follow their respective teachings are ''People of the Book.'' But as to whether any particular individual does follow their respective religious teaching, is not for me to judge. I'm not sure why you find this so hard to understand... - - - Updated - - - There's another individual soul that you have judged.
And here...here you see how at least ONE Christian faith has in her teachings the specific belief about God's salvation offered to all.... Please note it even gives special place to Muslims: The Church and non-Christians 839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325 The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329 840 and when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus. 841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330 842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race: All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331 843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332 http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P29.HTM
No no no...see...I'm no dummy, honey. I said that they act as "believers"--I did not say they are going to heaven. I trust they are becasue I know God is "faithful and just," but perhaps they harbor some error known only to God. He is in control, but I certainly CAN say that they appear to be living Christ's message. That's all I'm asking of you....who among non-Muslims appear to be "People of the Book?" See....but that's not what I said at all. But some Muslims do, and the Koran tells them to.
I think you got my point. An atheist might not have got it, but you must have done, because you know what it is to have faith. Maybe you should treat OJLebs faith with the same respect and sincerity you want yours to be treated with. Just a suggestion. Christianity enters the discussion when I notice that you point a finger at supposed inconsistencies in the Quran that are rather similar to the inconsistencies we find in the Bible. And it strikes me as odd that you as a Christian should question Allahs wisdom when sending division, when you ought to know that according to Luke 12:51 Jesus said Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. Apparently division is in Gods plan. I dont know why. But in regard of that division, that we see not only between the Abrahamic religions but even within them, I find this text rather beautiful: http://quran.com/5/46-48 It reminds me of the Ring Parable in Lessing's "Nathan the Wise". I'm not sure whether German literature is read much in the US and Canada. So in case you don't know it, here's a short summary: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathan_the_Wise#Ring_Parable
If you think Pope Francis lives Christ's message, you should try to emulate his attitude towards Islam and engage in respectful inter-religious dialogue: http://www.startribune.com/local/yourvoices/208683701.html
Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors. They will do you no harm, barring a trifling annoyance; if they come out to fight you, they will show you their backs, and no help shall they get. Shame is pitched over them (Like a tent) wherever they are found, except when under a covenant (of protection) from Allah and from men; they draw on themselves wrath from Allah, and pitched over them is (the tent of) destitution. This because they rejected the Signs of Allah, and slew the prophets in defiance of right; this because they rebelled and transgressed beyond bounds. Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of Allah all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in Allah and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous. Of the good that they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for Allah knoweth well those that do right.
I will treat him with respect, but there is no respect in confirming one in error. I asked for clarification and there was some explanation, but no apologetics that confirms that his interpretation of Islam is what Islam really teaches. There are many Muslims who believe that Islam's "Submission" is a command to make the world submit to their way of thinking--even by the sword. No doubt there are loving and peace-loving INDIVIDUALS who profess to follow Islam, but just as there are many Christians who profess to follow Christianity but do not actually follow--or even KNOW--what Christianity teaches, there are Muslims who follow Islam, but do not appreciate what it professes. If a Christian learns more about Christianity and becomes more devout, that Christian becomes more loving and compassionate and accepting of differences in a peaceable way (though not necessarily accepting those differences as equal in Godliness). What I have come to believe--because REALLY, I did not want to think such, it's horrifying to think such--is that when a person follows the teachings of Islam and becomes more devout in the teachings, that person becomes less loving and compassionate and accepting of differences because that is explicitly TAUGHT in Islam's Holy Texts. The more "devout" a Muslim becomes, the more they look like what goes by the euphemism of "radical" or "extremist." I WANT to be a "radical Christian"--but a radical Muslim is something entirely different. So--although i respect OJLeb and what he's trying to do, I believe he is likely just not particularly "devout." That division is not enforced by the sword. That division is in a person's heart. That is EXPLICITLY stated in the Bible, whereas violence is specifically stated in the Koran.
