Israel, Mired in Ideological Battles, Fights on Cultural Fronts

Likud has led Israel into a box canyon. The rest of the world is never going to accept the piece-by-piece annexation of Eretz Israel, the Arab people are never going to stop their struggle, and the USA, the only friend and ally Israel has left, is being pushed to the point at which we will no longer be able to defend Israel in the Security Council. US policy supports a two-state solution and condemns the "settlements" as illegal. We can't affort to change that position and we aren't going to. The Israelis are going to have to dumpt Likud and find a way to back down. They will do so and we Americans will end up paying the bill.

 

Somebody always ends up footing the bill for Israel.

 

I suggest we need to also open the debate about the dangers of any people imagining they have God on their side, always a recipe for total disaster and rampant murderous tribalism. Political correctness tells us we must never criticise the contents of so called holy books. Why? What is it the makes them deserving of such protection when their contents are used over and over to justify dispossion and slaughter? The obscene irony of Middle East politics though is these peoples are all members of semitic tribes.
Tribes that have been murdering each other since pre-history yet now want the rest of the world to be involved.
A pox on both their houses.

 

I suggest we should as well. Can you start by quoting the official policy which states this please accompanied by quotes and links to the the obvious and well known public statements by Israel's Prime Ministers stating same as the only time I actually hear or see this is from those who are not Israeli bringing it up as a talking point and in official Palestinian documents.

I think it's perfectly fine to do so but, one should never make the mistake of believing that a holy book replaces official policy. So, would you like to start a thread on this matter in the Religion section of the Forums?

Actually only one side wishes the world to get involved.

 

Are you suggesting that a sovereign nation invading another sovereign nation is the equivalent of what transpired with the partition and the events following?

Rather disingenuous argument.

 

No no, this emoticon is a perfect reflection of my feelings toward some of the posts, and I use it quite often white debating with Palestinian defenders

 

By "birth" you mean our grandparents that came from the ME and Europe, that generation is nearly gone but they told us how "safe" it was with all due respect to your knowledge, not just about safty but dignity al well, I rather fight every day in my own country near my own ppl and not live like a sheep subject to political agenda's that sometimes favor Jews and sometimes not.

 

True, many are just plain stupid and naive, I agree.

Best recent example is the Sweedish minister that isnt anti semite but for some reason belives a stabbed man can aim much better or face trial and possible prison if he doesnt, yea...ok.

 

Your feelings are irrelevant. No one wants to know.

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Do you think questioning Israel as a country with an inherent right to exist is an anti semitic act?

Do you think those Jews who oppose Israel as an existing state are anti semites?

 

All well and good-except that the Jews were given a county and instead of living there peacefully and gratefully it appears that what they were given is not enough.

 

Nothing is downgraded.

Here above we see you asking who Ria Reab hates jew or Arab , because according to you, by applying double standards etc rather than being simply wrong he has, in your opinion, automatically demonstrated hatred against an ethnic group of Israel.

In either case, Jew or Arab, you are found to be implicitly accusing this poster of anti semtism.

Then we see you applying unfair vilification, demonisation and double standards against the palestinians ; proving clearly that you're full of it. Those are facts. Not feelings. And I've quoted you directly above. You're found out again drew.

 

Let's just be clear. Questioning the existence of Israel does not confer any automatic prejudice against Jewish people.

It confers a possible automatic prejudice against Israel as a political and territorial entity.

Now that's clear don't anyone here let the pro Israel crowd bully you into their sham agenda.

 

I think denying a certain ethnic same rights you give others is a discriminating act based on hate or fear which can amount to anti -sematism - yes.

The specific Jewish sect you are talking about are saying what they say out of their own religous belives - not political, the fact they are a very small minority within that religion proves their view is not shared by other followers enough to say "that's the true path".

Are you suggesting that all the forces today out to destroy Israel - do so for the wellfare of the Palestinians ?

 

I disagree, I think its exactly prejudice against Jewish people, if not for the morality of allowing same rights to all nations than by force of law since Israel is an accepted state,

More than that, I think its within our legal rights, morality and basic acts of survival to view any entity that does question our existance as hostile, dangerous and as an enemy and treat it as such.

On personal lvl - how can you say my home, my society, my entire life and those pf my parents are all illegal/mistake - you wish to destroy and on same sentance - accuse me of being a bully to denounce such behaviour? not only you want to destroy my life but you call me a monster when I fight it ??? you cant be serious so I dont know what's your point.

 

I don't need anyone to tell me what anti-Semitism is; I'm bright enough to work it out for myself. What does provoke anger is the lock-step fall-back whining ('you just hate Jews'), any time Israel is criticized followed by the almost obligatory, 'we know what you really mean' coda.

 

Given a country, I am not so sure snake. The UN vote for partition which involved much bribery and blackmail was only a recommendation and one which many who were choosing to vote for had great trepidation and concern about making. Even if we go by the UN vote as being an apparent green light to Israel, which it was not, this was only half the agreement. The two states Israel and Palestine were supposed to be linked by an economic Union. This they believed offered the only chance of a safeguard for the Arabs.

What price Israel p44

and by the time Israel declared Independence, The UN fearing what was to happen was considering 'Trusteeship' not partition.

In any rate if people are going to argue that the UN agreed for the State of Israel then once it is remembered that even that recommendation was dependent on Economic Union as a safeguard for the Arabs. Clearly Plan Dalet came into operation instead. Hence the rethinking.

According to Lilienthal in What Price Israel, it was the one time the Soviet Union and the US stood on the same side. He believes the Soviet Union because it knew it would create havoc in the region and lose the US power there. Truman's vote on a pledge to get the presidency - the first time a US election was won on something other than what was good for the US. Indeed the State Department full heatedly recognised that doing this was likely to create a situation pretty like what we have today and that it went against everything the US stood for - for instance the right of the indigenous people to self determination and were strongly against the US vote in favour of partition.

The other important factor is displaced persons. There was an American scheme backed by Britain which would have seen most of the displaced Jews given entry to the US, UK and other appropriate countries but the Zionists who had become the voice of Jews would not entertain it. They wanted them all in Palestine. It was I think only after Israel declared herself a state that the New York Times carried a poll of those in camps and discovered that the vast majority wanted to go to the US and most certainly not Palestine. By this time it was too late. - again from What Price Israel.

Given that Israel is demanding that people recognise her right to exist rather than simply accepting the obvious that she does exist, it makes intellectual argument to discover whether in reality this is so. Last year Southampton University was intending on having a conference on this which eventually due to pressure put on it the University banned suggesting some non existent health and safety issues I think. Again Israel demands people say she has a right to exist which I have never heard any other country questioning. They just are but as Israel is demanding it be recognised that she has a 'right to exist' as one of her reasons for refusing any rights and justice to the Palestinians, I think such an argument is legit and I am not at all sure taken in a legal setting that Israel would win such an argument which no doubt is why pressure was put on the University to reframe from investigating.

 

All very laudable ideas, the problem is that the rights of Jews to dignity and safety were put above those of the majority of the people already living there.
At some point Israeli's will either deal with it or as is happening now attempt to wipe out the people, their history and culture.

 

USA is not the only ally Israel has...., what do you think will happen if the secuity council accepts Palestine as a state ?

 

They were put above during the war as the Arabs put their own above during same time - you suggest 2 things by your comment : 1) Arabs had more rights 2) Jews were responsible for the war because Arabs had more rights.

I ofc deny these, when Pa;lestine was part of a state - the Jews were already land owners, when it wasnt - all ethnics had same rights, Palestine land was cut by same baker with same knife as Jordan. Lebanon, Syria and other countries former part of Ottoman empire, so Jews are jugded diffrently than Druze, Christians, Shia, Sunni, Alawate, Beduween etc' - why ? fear, its the only thing I can think of, many ppl fear us so it seems. because in this world you can throw a rock and hit some group of ppl that got the short end of the stick if Justice is what you truly seek, that alone is not enough to justify destruction of a state so the other group will get what you think is fair.

 

And so are your opinions. Even less so.

 

How long did the Jews live "peacefully and greatfuly" in the country they were given... All of what, several hours?

What you really saying is that instead of peacefully and greatfuly bending over and grabbing the ankles, the Jews did not roll over and died as everyone expected them to do. They won the first war. And the next, and the one after that.

Peacefully and greatfuly my old, bony hairy ass! You heard it many times before, but what would happen if Arabs stop attacking or threatening Israel? There'd be peace. What would happen if Israel disarm itself?

That's right.

 

How can Israel be considered an "advanced democracy" when millions of non-Jewish citizens of the Palestinian territories subjected to the authority of the Israeli government by the Israel military are denied the Right to Vote in the Israeli elections?

The Palestinians in the occupied territories are not allowed to vote in the Israeli elections and democracy is based upon the right to vote of all the people subjected to the authority of the government.

Israel was founded and continues to exist based upon Zionism which advocates Jewish Supremacy and the ultimate conquest of all of Palestine. Israel is not a democracy and is based upon the same ideology of "supremacy" that was embraced by the Nazis in Germany.

 

In 1920 Jews made up approximately 13% of the population. If you think that recognizing the wish of the majority of the remaining 87% not to have a Jewish State imposed on them is giving the indigenous population "more rights" I guess I stand guilty as charged.

 

You must be joking, Israel accepted more Jewish refugees from the Arab states than the Arabs fled from Israel.
Yes the war of 1948 caused many tragedies, but the instigators were the Arabs not the Jews.

 

You do know, Judea and Samaria are not part of Israel but rather disputed territories, administered by Israel? So, what millions of non-Jewish citizens of the Palestinian Territories are you talking about and why would you wish for them to vote in Israeli elections? Forget I asked, for I know the answer to that one.

Your wish is akin letting millions of Mexicans to vote in USA elections.