Kosovo and Krajina? Macedonia and Greece?

Discussion in 'Russia & Eastern Europe' started by AGS, Feb 18, 2012.

  1. AGS

    AGS New Member

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    Same trend but different role players for each of the conflicts involved?
     
  2. Serbian_Unity

    Serbian_Unity New Member

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    Bearing in mind the fact that the Croatian Army, on the basis of religious and national hatreds, drove out 80% of their citizens of Serbian nationality from the republic of Serbian Krajina (Zone under the protection of the UN) and the republic of Croatia) from 1990 to 1995
    and in view of the fact that the Republic of Croatia in the last ten years, has not acted to remove the consequences of these forced expulsions and enable the Serbs to return to their homes and enjoy their individual and national rights, the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe puts forward a
    R E S O L U T I O N
    regarding the status of the forcibly removed Serbian people from the republic of Serbian Krajina and the Republic of Croatia
    1.TheSocialist Republic of Croatia, as a federal unit of the Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia, was in 1990 bi-national-her constitutive peoples were Croats and Serbs. Such a state structure operates in bi-national Belgium and tri-national countries, such as the Great Britain and Switzerland. The Croatian parliament has, unconstitutionally, by using only the votes of deputies of Croatian nationality, abolished unilaterally the constitutionally guaranteed sovereign rights of the Serbian people in the Republic of Croatia in 1990,
    2. Consequently the Serbian population had to endure repression and terror which resulted in Croatian cities being ethnically cleansed of Serbs - from 1990 to 1993. in military operations which occurred on 1st may(flash) and 4th august (storm), the Croatian army forcibly removed 80% of the inhabitants of the Republic of Serbian Krajina (Zone under the protection of the UN). The total number of forcibly removed Serbs is around a million.
    3. The most basic facts regarding the consequences of the cleansing of the Serbs:
    - in Croatia 1,100 Serbian villages and settlements, along with infrastructure
    - have been destroyed 30,000 Serbian homes and buildings have been demolished, only a derisory percentage has been restored,
    - 50,000 apartment dwellings belonging to Serbs from RSK (Zone under the protection of UN) and Croatia have been seized illegally - repealing a previous law which had been in force guaranteeing tenants' rights,
    - the Republic of Croatia has not returned foreign currency savings of forcibly removed Serbs, which amounts to tens of millions of euros,
    - in Croatia state property has been privatized, but Serbs have been barred from participating in the purchase process ,nor have they been compensated by equal distribution of shares,
    - the majority of forcibly removed Serbs have not received pensions nor invalidity benefits to which they are entitled and their right to have access to documents relating to their work status and proof of residency in Croatia has been restricted,
    - in Croatia, from 1990 to 2005, around 5% of forcibly removed Serbs have returned,
    4. Although not wishing to go into the detailed causes and courses of the war in republic of Croatia from 1990 to 1995, but noting the fact that the human rights of forcibly removed Serbs have been violated, the parliamentary body of the council of Europe issues a recommendation to the government of the republic of Croatia:
    - that it return to the Serbs their status as a constitutional, state bearing people and that the republic of Croatia (by Constitutional means) is reconstituted as a bi-national state-as it was from 1945 to 1990,
    - that it revokes all decrees which remove from Serbs their citizenship,
    - that Serbs are allowed to have unimpeded right to return to their homes and enjoy the disposal of their property as they see fit, without any preemptive administrative and judicial obstacles,
    - that lists of those suspected of war crimes(amongst Serbs and Croats and members of national minorities) be fully in accordance with those presented by the Hague tribunal,
    - that it fairly compensates Serbs for the destruction and plunder of their property,
    - that it allows forcibly removed Serbs the same rights to purchase their apartment dwellings and under the same conditions as that enjoyed by the Croatian nation and members of the national minorities,
    - the privatization off state-owned and private property, large, medium and small enterprises was carried out in Croatia in such a way that the Serbs exiled from Croatia were deprived of the right to take part in privatizations by means of which the citizens of Croatian nationality took part in privatization,
    - that it allows forcibly removed Serbs full access to their foreign currency and dinar savings and guarantees that the payment of interest on their accounts will be in accordance with banking regulations,
    - that it allows forcibly removed Serbs unhindered enjoyment of their working rights and regular payment of pensions and invalidity benefits
    5. The parliamentary body of the council of Europe issues a recommendation that, regardless of possible objections by various political forces in the country, the republic of Croatia undertake all necessary measures to enable forcibly removed Serbs to enjoy their individual and collective citizenship rights-in accordance with the charter for human rights of the un and other international accords relating to human rights,
    6. The Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe recommends that the governments of European countries encourage and help the government of republic of Croatia on the path to democratization of the interethnic and inter confessional relations, which will allow it, in the best possible way to fulfill apart of its conditions for membership of the European Union.
     
  3. AGS

    AGS New Member

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    1) - Was the federal republic of croatia bi-national? Where are your sources for this claim? Croatia had many ethnicities besides serbs like italians and hungarians. Besides every republic had its soveriegn border within the old yugoslavia. There wasn't a Krajina in the old yugoslavia and just only croatia.

    2)- I do agree Serb civilians and businesses suffered a big loss you mentioned in all of your sentences. I also agree the Croatian govt had a biaseness against the serbs in Krajina.


    3)-You also neglected to mention serbian troops from Krajina wanting to blow a missile to zagreb and also the war crime atrocities commited by people like arkan on civilians in hospitas. These actions just created a loss of credibility for the serbs in krajina.

    4) I also feel the independence movement of croatia was quick and should had gone under debate with Yugoslavia like economic treaties concerning rights to the sea and local businesses. I also feel these economic treaties could have prevented a greater war. Furthermore, I also feel non-croatians in croatia should get minority status or equal status with croats. Croatia can just be another multi ethnic state like any western country in europe. You see this phenomenon happening in the US?

    5) In conlcusion, economic treaties between the republics wanting seccession could have saved alot of lives and prevented future genocides.
    You can find some croats living in serbia as you will find serbs in Croatia? Do you agree with my statement? Business/Trade between the republics can create an atmosphere of peace and unity?
     
  4. Serbian_Unity

    Serbian_Unity New Member

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    The Republic of Croatia in 1991 comprised the territories of the Croatian and Serbian peoples. In accordance with this, in the 1974 Constitution of Croatia both peoples were holders of sovereignty:
    "ARTICLE 1: The Socialist Republic of Croatia is a national state of the Croatian people, the state of the Serbian people in Croatia and the state of the national minorities living in it".
    The statehood of Croatia within Yugoslavia was based on the principle of self-determination. After WW I the Slovenes, Croats and Serbs established the state on their ethnic territories in the former Austria – on October 29, 1918. As early as December 1, 1918 they united it with Serbia into the Kingdom of Serbs, Croatians and Slovenes – as of 1929 the Kingdom of Yugoslavia.
    Orthodox Serbs fought against the fascists and had two antifascist liberation armies–partisans and chetnics. After the victory of antifascist forces in WW II, Orthodox Serbs forgave the Croats for the genocide against them in WW2. They agreed (1945) to join their ethnical territories to the Croatian ones and to organize People's Republic of Croatia (later on Socialist republic of Croatia). The Serbs set only one condition to the Croats – that the authorities of the Republic of Croatia cannot cut off the state connections between the Serbs of Krajina with the Serbs in other federal units of Yugoslavia.

    Furthermore, due to an immeasurable Serbian contribution to the liberating anti-fascist movement, in the Second ZAVNOH Congress of October 1943, a resolution was passed, which says, among other things: "There is no, there cannot be and there will not be a Croatia in which the Serbs could not be guaranteed full equality and full rights";

    Hence, the Croatian state comprised Croatian and Krajina Serbian territories, as confirmed by resolutions and the constitution of Yugoslavia. However, the Croatian government unilaterally changed the nature of the Croatian state in 1990, by declaring it the state of the Croatian people only, which deprived the Serbs of their constituent rights and was the occasion for the civil war.

    The Croatian and Yugoslavian constitution from 1974 defined the Serbs and Croats of Croatia as nations (constituent nations). The other ethnicities were classified as national minorities.

    The only sovereign borders at that time were the borders of Yugoslavia.
    The borders within Yugoslavia were administrative borders and not borders of states, but federal units. The Croatian sovereignty belonged to the Croatian and Serbian people, as clearly defined by the constitution. So, the right to self determination belonged also to the Krajina Serbs, not only to the Croats. Based on that right, the Krajina Serbs established their own state in 1991 when bi-national Croatia collapsed which was caused by the Croatian administration which tried to secede Croatia from Yugoslavia in an unlawfully manner.

    Audio tapes of a secret meeting of the Croatian military and political top on 31-07-1995 testify that the Croatian government instructed its military force to expel the Serbs from Krajina. The Croatian government intentionally expelled the Serbian community from Krajina and Croatia, which is the largest ethnic of cleansing in Europe since 1945.


    Arkan was not a member of the political or military organs of the Republic of Serbian Krajina. He was expelled from Krajina by the authorities in 1993, because he did not obey the regular forces. Arkan was the leader of a paramilitary formation and he did not obey the military authorities of Krajina, which he was expelled for.

    The Krajina Serbs did target Zagreb in 1995, which was a result of the Croatian military operation Flash which led to the expulsion of the Serbian population from Western Slavonia.

    Croatia had the right to become independent according to the constitution, but Croatia did not want to secede from Yugoslavia in a peaceful and democratic manner. This is because Croatia could not deprive the Serbs of their constituent rights, by seceding according to the constitution. The Croats wanted Croatia to be the national state only of the Croatian people. They only way to accomplish that goal was to rehabilitate Croatia's policy from 1941. This policy led to the mass expulsion of the Serbs.

    Croatia should restore the constituent rights of the Serbs. One should also bare in mind that Croatia organized a massive genocide against the Serbs along with Hitler in WW2. In addition, in the 90s the Croatian government banished the Serbs who survived the genocide in WW2. Hence, Croatia's territorial integrity and sovereignty should be questioned having in mind the crimes against the Serbs in WW2 and the 90s.

    The violation of the Yugoslav constitution by the secessionist republics caused the genocide. The same policies from WW2 were rehabilitated and the consequences of these policies should be restored, which means that the Krajina Serbs should get their constituent rights back in order to organize a mass return of the expelled Serbs. The only way to get the Krajina Serbs back to their lands is by restoring their constituent rights. However, the EU and UN do not want to support this.
     
  5. AGS

    AGS New Member

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    Ok

    1. Yes, it is true in 1918 a kingdom of yugoslavia had been formed due to the aggressions of Austria-Hungary and the Ottoman Empire.

    However, Croatians wanted independence from Austria-Hungary until the league of Nations formulated by President Woodrow Wilson who had been influenced by Serbian lobby groups at the turn of the 20th century in the US.

    And it is true there had been Croatian pan slavist groups who wanted a coalition of republics for protection against aggressive nieghbors.

    However, there were groups that wanted a strong national croatia that would
    make nations pay a tariff for the benefit of the croatian people. League of Nations approved of a yugoslavia so they would avoid paying a couple of tariffs passing the borders of croatia-bosnia-serbia and all the way to Turkey for trade..Thus they made a big conglomerate country called Yugoslavia under serbian lobby groups headed by the serbian king so they could save money on the tariff issue and expand the borders all the way to Greece...

    these big banks and NGOs still run the world as they had ruled it 100 years ago. So they don't care about any kind of democratic aspirations for any kind of people just efficient profit.


    By the way, Croatians had a constitution granting independence from Austria-Hungary. They were denied by the league of nations and put into this yugoslavia. Yugoslavia never benefited them ..As I explained about tariffs not being paid to croatians but the special interest groups of the serbian king.


    2. Now you had mentioned under the socialist constitution of croatia being a bi national of serbs and croats? Well it never mentioned anything about Krajina as some republic nor any connections to Serbia.


    3) The genocide had been caused by many factors and not just violating some constitution. I would say the internal corruption, lack of infrastructure, devaluation of the dinar, propaganda, unemployment and bankruptcy from the IMF loan. It is 100% economics. As I mentioned many times before, poverty breeds extremist regimes. Germany lost a world war I and it produced Hitler during the depression which is a good example.

    Yugoslavia never was efficient. Even now... The same people who were schooled by the communist and fascist in the past are in power causing everyone to immigrate out of the country....whether its croatia or serbia alone or together in yugoslavia..

    same crap different story.

    whats the real problem? as i had been saying ECONOMICS and the system.

    Even if you are going to make an independent krajina like the albanians made kosovo, you will have the same problems...

    kosovo has poverty and so will krajina...the system with no accountability or transferability will just bring poverty and give organized crime groups power...
     
  6. Serbian_Unity

    Serbian_Unity New Member

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    The Serbs of Krajina cannot be compared with the Albanians of Kosovo.
    Serbs are in Krajina natives, while many Albanians were brought to Kosovo by imperial forces. For instance, the Turks, fascist, Nazis and the communists populated many Albanians in Kosovo, while Serbs had been expelled and murdered.

    The Serbs in Krajina possessed political rights not only in Yugoslavia since 1918, but also in Austria, Hungary and Venice. So, the Krajina Serbs have always been a political constituent nation on their territories. However, Croatia conducted genocide against them in WW2 and collectively banished them in 1995.

    The only way to reverse these consequences of the genocide is to restore the political rights of the Krajina Serbs, by allowing them to install their own state and military organs on their territories where they formed the majority until 1995, when Croatia brutally invaded UN protected area, Krajina.
     
  7. spt5

    spt5 New Member

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    The Albanians in Kosovo are not a result of immigration/importing. They have always lived there since time immemorial, since before Slavonic tribes colonialized the Balkans.

    As for the Craina Serbs, wouldn't it be more feasible to establish a formal state/country called Craina, with a geography composed of the lands between the Danube, river Alt/Olt, and the Transylvanian Alps? This is territorially larger than Croatia's Craina, so this would make up for the sacrifices that the western Serbs would need to make for this deal.
     
  8. AGS

    AGS New Member

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    Why do you know so much about this opinion? Are you really from monaco and part slovakian? Or are you albanian with alot of time on your hands talking with your buddies Davinci, Valmir, and etc?

    I would think someone from monaco would not even care how long albanians were living in kosovo.
     
  9. AGS

    AGS New Member

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    You make accusations of croatians making genocide?

    1) WWII genocide has nothing to do with the political environment of the 1990s. Ustasi were dismantled long time ago despite the modern day idiots waving their paraphernelia.

    2) Milan Martic president of krajina ordered rockets launching into Zagreb's civilian zone and had been sentenced for 27 years. Does that ring a bell?

    If he sent rockets to military zones, I can understand the action to be of military interests and strategy ..But a civilian area ???? like Zagreb..


    3) Serbs bombed Dubrovnik in Oct 1991 another civilian area? Can you believe this action? They also bombed the Grand Imperial Hotel and now Hilton has the location.

    How does Dubrovnik fit a strategic military target for the serbian army or Zagreb a military location?

    I know many serbs express alot of remorse for dubrovnik.
     
  10. spt5

    spt5 New Member

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    You are joking, right? I certainly don't know much, I know VERY little about (the fascinating) East Europe.

    Like I said, I am an American Monegasque, with half Slovakian blood in me. I am not Albanian.

    Why?

    We Americans exterminated the natives of America a 100 years ago. Slavs are CURRENTLY in the process of exterminating non-Slavs in East Europe. I think it is fascinating to observe a death of a nation and what comes after that death. The 2 most interesting nations in East Europe are then the Hungarian and the Albanian. The Hungarians are in the death process, the Albanians are saved from it at the last minute.
     
  11. AGS

    AGS New Member

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    Hungarians are albanians best friends. LOL. ahahahahahaha

    By the way, did you know the Hungarian langauge group is the only non-indo-european tongue in Europe not to mention Finland and Turkey?

    I don't think there are extermination of non-slavs in Europe... Did you know many non-slavs speak slavic language groups? I bet you are one of those albanians who think language is passed from father to son from neolithic times.... NOT !!!!.....Now you sound very much like a Roman Catholic Albanian because those themes are basically their favorite obsessions on many forums from youtube to this site.
     
  12. spt5

    spt5 New Member

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    I guess this is why Slavonic people want to exterminate Hungarians. Have you ever heard of the Celtic languages, the Basque language, the Lapp language, just to mention a few of the many other European languages that are not Indo-European?

    Then look at Slovakia. Its 2 major cities, Kosice and Bratislava have now HALF as many Hungarians as they did in 1944. This statistics is too much of a drop for any slavonic propaganda, and it proves that Slavs exterminate non-Slavs. In contrast, Slavonic settlements in the center of Hungary survived a 1000 years of Hungarian and Austrian rule, and left VOLUNTARILY for Czechoslovakia in 1945.

    Are you talking about the agressive assimilation of non-Slavs, that is called Slavization or Slovakization?
     
  13. AGS

    AGS New Member

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    Lapps at least their language are asians in orgin. Celts are indo-europeans. Basques are proven to be descendants from neanderthals. Basques don't have an Indo-european langauge. By the way, Indo-european langauges have its orgin in central asia...Why is it called "INDO-european" ?- like a few thousand years ago before the mongoloids...

    The forefather of Hungarians is Attila the Hun from asia who ravaged the roman empire with rapes and plunders.


    What about germanic ethnic cleansing in World War II of non germanics?

    Not to mention (Franks) germanic ethnic cleansing of Roman Gaul?
     
  14. spt5

    spt5 New Member

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    Yes, this is true. Almost. The Celts would disagree with being Indo-European.

    Does this matter because this is where the Slavs got their inspirations from?

    If that is the ticket for the Slavs to do their ethnic cleansing of non-Slavs, then, by the same right, when can non-Slavs begin their ethnic cleansing of Slavs?

    If this was true, then the French language would be a Germanic language today and not a Latin one.
     
  15. AGS

    AGS New Member

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    You are one confused albanian. I can tell from your lack of knowledge of roman history...

    Albanians usually hypothesize languages to pass down father to son unchanged from the beginning of time.

    ahaahahaahahahahaahahahahaahahahahahahahaahahah


    With the albanian flawed premise, it shows albanian lack of critical thinking and reasoning.


    Celts are indo europeans.


    Franks adopted a roman latin slang because they allied with the romans exterminating the rebellious gauls. They used a type of latin to communicate with the romans for a time and used it ever since as their language giving up their old germanic ones...

    The only person here with slavic ethnic cleansing obsession is an albanian with a fake profile claiming you are monacan and slovakian.

    LOL.


    Your posts bore me to death.
     
  16. spt5

    spt5 New Member

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    Very interesting. If this is true, then I may have learnt something here. Thanks.

    Okay, so if languages are not supposed to be passed down "from father to son", then why should a Slavonic language get passed down, instead of a Germanic language, or the Hungarian language, or the Albanian language, onto (former) Slavonic speakers?

    Is that because your mental capacity to debate is limited?
     
  17. AGS

    AGS New Member

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    I just reported you for insulting me.


    I can answer why languages are passed down...

    Languages are passed down because of economic reasons, political/religious reasons, and conquests of war.

    Pagan tribes adopt a language of another tribe because they were either conquered by them or they offered economic prosperity..

    You can see many berber tribesmen who are non-arabic adopting the arabic language of the quran because of religion and conquest as an example...

    Immigrants who come to america lose their old langauge and adopt english as their tongue for reasons of economic prosperity.


    Languages are also mixed with other languages.


    Women pass down lanaguages more than the men because they nurture the infant and child that comes in contact with the mother.

    Even if a conquering tribe takes over another tribe, the conquered group doesnt assimilate easily and they don't learn quick..

    Usually the victimized group passes their old language via females while the males die out...

    Women carry the languages...

    German is one indo-european language that has 30% non-indo-european grammatical structure.

    something to think about..
     
  18. spt5

    spt5 New Member

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    I agree with all of this happening with languages. And yes, it is the women that pass down the language. In this analysis, the passing down of the slavonic languages is not economy but conquest based. And this sets up the next cycle, where slavonic languages will be targeted for eradication, based on future anti-conquests against slavs. Since conquests come and go, the more successful slavonic languages get to eradicate others in the current conquest cycle, the more successful the other languages will become in eradicating the slavonic languages in the (future) anti-conquest cycle. I speculate, that the success of the Albanian language against the Serbian language in Kosovo is an example of this.
     
  19. AGS

    AGS New Member

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    Everyone speaks english in kosovo..Kosovo is controlled by NATO and administered by the UN...The albanians are just puppets and they are anyways immigrating to New York getting easy green cards working at Camp Bondsteel. Why would they want to live in Kosovo when they would have a better life abroad?

    In order for albanians to be prosperous in the balkans, they must have good relations with their neighbors...And they don't get along with their nieghbors which just sinks them down to poverty.

    English is the modern day dominant language.


    Slavonic and Germanic both have indo-european roots. They both have similar grammar syntaxes.


    Otherwise southern slavonic has a different language inflection than to the neighbors of the north reflecting the older non-slavic influence from the past...Even polish is the only slavic language that speaks in mono-syllabic repetition which is not characteristics of slavic indo-european languages.
     
  20. DaVinci

    DaVinci New Member

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    Kosovo and Krajina are not same at all. While Kosovo was a constitutional part of ex-Yu, Krajina never had that status.
    Second, while Kosovo got independent and became a country, Krajina, remained only a geographical toponym which belongs to the past and recalls serbian loser history !
     
  21. AGS

    AGS New Member

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    kosovo and krajina are the same because the serbs view krajina as their illegitimate province while albanians view kosovo as their illegitimate province.
     
  22. DaVinci

    DaVinci New Member

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    Completely delusional statement, which once again reveals lack of your knowledge regarding Balkan region or you are making intentional mistakes as a serb that you are.

    Kosovo was constitutional part of ex-YU, participated at the highest level of Yugoslav institutions(even had the right of the veto) !

    Second, Kosovo is now a Republic recognized by the Republic of Croatia, which expelled serbs and finally crushed their dream of having Krajina as a serbian territory.

    Do I need to say more ?!?
     
  23. AGS

    AGS New Member

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    Croatia didn't expel Serbs.. There are still serbs living in some areas of croatia unlike albania.

    Croatia has more humanity than albania for many reasons...

    They turned in their own great general and even admitted to their flaws...

    Croatia has more resources, variety of people, and better economics.

    There are Italians,hungarians, serbs, germans, greeks, british, americans,russian, czechs and many other people who live in croatia...

    What does albania have ?

    you tell me ?

    just poverty and no diversity of any kind of people...
     
  24. ValmirZz

    ValmirZz New Member

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    Hohohoho
    Albanians never moved in large numbers(Like Slavs did), maybe a family or two came from Albania in Kosovo but in Kosovo there were always Albanians.


    Albanian nation never had a real brother or a good friend in Balcan or Europe,We had to deal alone :)



    LIE.

    You mean Albanians?
     

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