Lawyer: Lesbians’ assault on gay man can’t be hate crime

"By Richard Weir
Saturday, February 25, 2012 -

Three women identified by their lawyers as lesbians were arraigned yesterday on a hate crime charge for allegedly beating a gay man at the Forest Hills T station in an unusual case that experts say exposes the law’s flawed logic.

“My guess is that no sane jury would convict them under those circumstances, but what this really demonstrates is the idiocy of the hate-crime legislation,” said civil liberties lawyer Harvey Silverglate. “If you beat someone up, you’re guilty of assault and battery of a human being. Period. The idea of trying to break down human beings into categories is doomed to failure.”

Prosecutors and the ACLU of Massachusetts said no matter the defendants’ sexual orientation, they can still face the crime of assault and battery with intent to intimidate, which carries up to a 10-year prison sentence, by using hateful language.

“Someone who is Jewish can be anti-Semitic,” said ACLU staff attorney Sarah Wunsch. “The mere fact that someone is a member of the same class doesn’t mean they could not be motivated by hatred for their very own group.”

But Carolyn Euell, 38, mother of two of the defendants, Erika Stroud, 21, of Dorchester and Felicia Stroud, 18, West Roxbury, told reporters the alleged attack “can’t be hateful” because both her daughters are lesbians.

Prosecutor Lindsey Weinstein said the two sisters and one of their domestic partners, Lydia Sanford, also a defendant, viciously beat the man Sunday, repeatedly punching and kicking him after he bumped them with his backpack on a stairwell.

She said the victim, who suffered a broken nose, told cops he believed the attack was “motivated as a crime because of his sexual orientation” since the three women “called him insulting homophobic slurs.”

But attorney Helene Tomlinson, who represented Sanford, told the judge her client is “openly identified as a lesbian ... so any homophobic (conduct) is unwarranted.” She said the alleged victim was the aggressor and used racial slurs: “He provoked them.”

Felicia Stroud’s attorney, C. Harold Krasnow, said, “They don’t know what his sexual orientation is, just like he doesn’t know what theirs is.”

Krasnow later noted the low bail the judge gave the women, $100 to $500 cash, and suggested the prosecution’s case was weak.

Civil-rights attorney Chester Darling agreed. “No one should go to court. It’s knuckle justice,” he said. “It’s a fair exchange.”

But Jake Wark, a spokesman for Suffolk District Attorney Daniel F. Conley, said prosecutors will have no problem proving the women committed a hate crime, even if they are lesbians.

“The defendants’ particular orientation or alleged orientations have no bearing on our ability to prosecute for allegedly targeting a person who they believe to be different from them,” he said.

http://bostonherald.com/news/region...y_man_cant_be_hate_crime/srvc=home&position=2

Hmmmmmmmm............ Three mean Sista Lesbos....... mmm...mmm...mmm

 

When two strangers are angry at eachother, it is very common for them to hurl verbal abuse related to their race or sexual orientation (if one of them are gay). And quite frequently, people are hypocrites when they call the other person a name. For example, a black man making a racial slur against a hispanic. In this case, the lesbians were obviously being hypocrites by bringing up the man's sexuality. But people often do not think much about what they say when they are angry.

This just shows how ridiculous "hate crime" laws are. Why should the punishment be so much increased if some racial verbal abuse is thrown in during the crime?

This case just reinforces the sterotype- tough lesbians beat up the vulnerable gay man! Does anyone else see the comedy in this?

 

I've always had an issue with the label of "hate crimes"

yet another attempt by liberals to try and pander to special interests.

Assault is assault and murder is murder.

 

I generally tend to agree. But there is one exception that I consider worth at looking at.

There was a case not long ago where a college roommate used his webcam to record his roommate making out with another guy... he posted and made it available via twitter for others to see. He was convicted of invasion of privacy, as well as a hate crime.


On the surface, the crime is strictly invasion of privacy. Whether he was making out with a girl or making out with a boy, it's invasion of privacy. But the CONSEQUENCES of that invasion are quite different. While a guy and girl making out might just be giggled at, or even cheered on, two guys making out and being exposed, publicly, puts them at risk of being verbally and physically intimidated publicly... this particular invasion of privacy can be seen as doing more damage than a similar case with a straight couple. If it can be shown that the defendant knew of the additional damage, or acted negligently, and put his roommate in harms way, we may have a case here.

This doesn't need to be labeled specifically as a "hate crime", but the creating of a real and legitimate threat against a person is something I find worth considering.... perhaps under a different name. Gays are not special in this case, any case where the defendant creates additional harm for whatever reason, and acted knowingly or negligently in doing so, is worth considering.


Anyway, that's a case where "hate" created additional threats against the victim, above and beyond the invasion of privacy. The case of the OP is different, where it asks if hate was the motivation for the crime.... regardless of if it caused additional harm beyond the extent of the crime (assault). Much harder to prove, and pretty comical in the situation of the OP. Probably not worthy of prosecuting unless someone can give a good reason for doing so.

 

What absurdity. It was a violation of privacy, nothing more. Your turning exposing someones homosexuality into a hate crime.

 

No, I'm turning it into reckless endangerment.

 

???? No, you used the term "hate crime", not reckless endangerment. As if he should have known that if you embarass a gay guy theyll probably off themselves.

 

Apparently you did not read my whole post.

 

Yes I did. And what you call it is irrelevant as long as you are calling it a crime. And you are turning outing a homosexual into a crime. More of your special rules for special people.

 

It would apply to straight couples too depending on the damage caused, and if the damage is intentional.

Think of I this way. If someone kills my wife, I can sue them for loss of companionship in addition to murder. A crime is one thing, the damages caused are another.

 

Which you merely presume is intentional in the case of homosexuals because everyone should know if you offend a homosexual, they might off themselves.
Had this instead been him making out with a fat ugly girl that caused him to be embarrassed, we wouldnt have any of this

 

That would be up to the jury, if they decided the defendant acted knowingly in a way that would damage the victim, and how serious that damage is. Fat woman included.

 

Youve already made that determination based solely upon the fact that he is homosexual.

 

Depends on who he showed the video to and with what purpose. My determination is not strictly based on the fact that he was homosexual... My only question is if the defendant INTENDED to cause additional harm above the privacy violation. If the defendant had only recorded the video and had not shown it to anyone else, this would not be a problem. But who he showed it to and why are the more important questions.

That all said, this may already be covered in law. There are multiple tiers of the invasion to privacy that you can be convicted with. Depending in what those tiers represent, the issue may already be covered. Still, point is not all crime and their consequences/intentions are the same.

 

good to know that if I ever beat up a gay.... and I'm accused of a hate crime for it.... I will just claim that I am "bi"


1. they can't make me PROVE or provide names of guys I have slept with

2. the argument that it's not sex that makes you gay says I could NEVER have slept with a guy and still be gay. Which is also good since I won't actually have to have sucked a penis to claim the protections of being gay.


sucks when your own protections come back and bite you on the ass, huh

 

Is "hatred" a crime or an emotional state ,can emotions be crimes?


Do we control emotions are they not sub-concious ,in criminal law you have do a concious act ,one that you are mentally aware of doing otherwise no crime exists.I am starting to think that 'hate crimes 'are emotions on trial and do not belong as criminal definitions .Homophobia for example is not by definition based on hate it is fear ,or the word Phobia means" fear" the last time I looked .Is calling someone a "poofter" for instance a Crime ,when I was a boy it was concidered rude crude and unattracttive but not a crime.[makes me laugh with the god word filter of PF ,I can say 'Poofter ' but i can't say '[(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)]",Poofter or lets try poof,is a hatefull word sloe refering to homosexuals in a direct derogatory way ,yet (*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*) which is a tied bunch of wood is not allowed.

So is the use of 'Gay" a hate crime because it holds homosexuals up to ridicle.Quite frankly i think its the zero tolerence crap gone stupid. Backward crude and ignorant thinking is not a crime ,its religion .

Punching and kicking someone irrespective of what is said is a crime we call assault, Verbal abuse doesn't compare to Pysical assault.One should get you fined for Obscene language the other land you in Jail.One a misdemeanor the other a felony.

In NSW for instance verbal assault as a crime dosen't exist words cannot of themselves be deemed to be Hurtful.criminal acts are all about deeds actions the crime is in the doing.the act.

No matter if words are discrimatory or not the utterence cannot of itself land you in Jail.

 

Just a request ,could you stop with the export of this politically correct crap being exported to Australia please we are not the 53rd State of the USA,we have our own brand of stinking stupid crap its called the ALp ,we are ok thanks ,its getting real stupid down here.

And it is as if the Homosexual ,sorry the LGBTIQC has been transfered from San Francisco straight into a setion of the Homosexual community called the LGBTIQC and it was satarted off by your Liberal stupids taken up by my liberal stupids ,only problem is down here we do not have any constitutional protections ,bill of rights what the hell is that ,freedom of speech enshrined in the constitution what?I live in Austraallia Mate.crickey cobbers and cobbettes fair crack of the whip ,stone crows ,my stupid liberals gobble this crap up with delight ,so please stop it.

 

Oh how naieve you are , the "Gay" community [whoever they are],has solved that one as well ,they have come up with MSM ,men who have sex with men.Personally I think it makes it MWHSWM but who am I to protect the conventions of the English language .Which certain "Gay" people tend to want destroyed .but anyway ,so to get over the inconvienient Bisexual definition ,is Bi "Gay" Problem ,they atempt to negate a SCIENTIFIC definition Much like the attack of religion actually.

So MSM if we take it litterally ,which the "Gay" special people hate,then all men are MSM ,think about it we all Masturbate .yes we do unless mentally ill of course ,so every man is a MSM.

The most discrimatory humans on the question of sexual orientation ,are undoutably the LGBTIQC Community ,who openly discriminate against Hetrosexuals with impunity.Gets my Goat as I have a hetrosexual friend with HIV \Aids which she contracted at BIRTH ,do you think she gets support and services from the Government financed Aids Council of NSW ,No in their documents they specifically direct Hetrosexuals to other service providers ,these animals kill Hetrosexuals as the Suicide rate for people living with Hiv ,and Hiv\Aids is 10 times higher then everyone else.

Oh and if that is not enough ,if you Idenify as LGBTIQC Lesbian ,Gay ,Buisexual ,Tr5ansexual ,Intersexual or queer \Questioning ,Confused ,kid you nnot.even if you don't have Hiv or Hiv \aids the services of ACON are open to free availed .

And they are very lucky that we do not have the right to bare arms I tell you ,promise lucky nI am a communist and will smash them politically .No phil its ok make them suffer shooting is to good ,woo sorry it makes me angry ,direct open PERSECUTION and discriminiation against my Hetro nsexual human Brothers and sisters.

Disgusting in the 21st century and I have only evr seen it from people calling themselves the LGBTIQC Community.Oh btw my Homosexual friends don't want Marriage rights they laugh about it ,guess who is behind the 'Gay Marriage Rites 'thingy ,thats right its the LGBTIQC Community [whoever they are}

the difference between the Homosexual and the LGBTIQC is that the Homosexual community wants equality thats all ,whereas as you have correctly alluded the LGBTIQC wants to be Specialn venerated for Gayness ,SMASH THEM,not normal Homosexual people who are bascially the same as the rest of us .

hello my names Comrade Phil and I am a Bisexual just like the other 70% of the Human population has anyone a problem with that !?

 

We're only getting your perspective here. I suppose in Australia homosexuals may have a bit more political power (or something); I haven't read up on that much, but I will eventually.

In America, homosexual people have been working to influence politicians for many years (and rightly so). But none I've heard speak or act, are out to diminish the rights of any others or "heterosexuals". LGBT here in America are seeking EQUAL rights (and protections), not additional rights; and that makes perfect sense.

Even so, I can see it may be helpful to research your LGBTIOC, and see what's going on in The Land Down Under.

 

my perspective is based on my everyday dealings with those that advocate as the largest LGBTIQCommunity organisation in australia with a budjet of over $14 000 000 annually ,we have and please listen to this and i would like your opinion actually ,In NSW we have "special police'called GLLO thats Gay and Lesbian Police with real guns the same brevik used actually ,but anyway,yes we have specific G and lesbian community officers .No other community of any sort is given its own specific police ,now because i am in conflict with the biggest LGBTIQ Community Organisation over their outrageous treatment of hetro sexual and bi sexual Hiv|Aids sufferers the LGBTIQC organisation Known as ACOn or the Aids council of NSW ,which gets grants from the governement to supply services to well Aids sufferers.


Well guess what ype of Police officer Has been suddenly appearing to Harass and intimidate me ,thats right 5 different occasions not just any Cop no funny always thats everytime Gay and Lesbian Police ,I kid you not ,and yes a lawyer is employed and anti discrimination cases served.So as you know the Gay and Lesbian community are the biggest gossips on the Planet and as ACON ,conciders me hostile and they have that right they have painted me out to be a Homophobic because i dare to challenge them.

I go to a railway station coppers inspecting tickets ok ,i get my ticket out ok I move on and as i do a 2 Gay officers one of which has meet me at the ACOn office runs after me demanding ID not one form but two and threatens to arrest me and detain me for Inadequate ID which was crap.Oh BTW ,if you are a member of the LGBTIQC then you can havge access to all ACON services ,even get this if you do not have HIV infection or Aids ,but if you are hetrosexual or bisexual and want services from Acon then you get kicked to the curb even if you DO HAVE HIV\AIDS.believe it the most stinking Putrid openly Discrimintary Organisation I have EVER Known and I know some doozies .

GBTIQC without Hiv|Aids No worry welcome to the Gravy train ,hetrosexual or bisexual WITH Hiv\Aids no sorry we don't help People like you we may be the Aids Council of NSW but thats only for the NSW LGBTIQC not you others.

Btw the section of Society that has fewer infections Then any other is well the lesbian Community,yet you couldn't swing a cat and not hit at least Half a dozen lesbians in the Acon building .Yep and they are the man Hating right wing extreme feminist types you know them butch as any dyke can be .Men hating women Psycopaths you know the type .qassi fascist in their out looks and mannerisms.Uniform wearing Dykes that would be good concentration camp guards.You know the type .

So whats wrong with using scientific acceptable definitions such as Homosexual to describe yourself ,is it because the Males hate the Female dyke scary people just as much as i do and want some distance from them .So instead of homosexual united we get lesbian Gay Divided.

By the way i have documentation as to there killing through Stress and persecution of hetrosexuals with Aids by the Biggest LGBTIQC organisation on the Planet I reckon.

www.ACON.org.au read their strategy documents note the total lack and near fear of mentioning Aids Plenty of HIV this and Hiv that But Aids is nearly totally Denied as being existant.I kid you not these people are foul.

Note who funds them not the LGBTIQC no the NSW Health department ,note its always the LGBTIQ Community needs mentioned first with HIV needs tacked on the end.


Now I have no problem with them Having an Organisation but don't you think the Non Infected LGBTIQ should fund themselves and stop fraudulently using government funded which they think themselves entitled because they are "Special people 'with 'special needs "because they are GBTLIQC.whoopy Do for you !


I have dedicated my political life at the moment for the disruption and exposure of this fraud called the corrupt LGBTIQC even against the advice of my comrades of 30years.but they haven't seen people die at the Hands of the LGBTIQC from the stress and persecution of the LGBTIQC of Australia.HIV \Aids is not a pretty disease ,Have you ever experienced a Human that lives and dies with it????I do every day in every way.If you know what I mean.

Imagine a world with Man hating Lesbians with guns ,tasers ,battons capsicum gas,and the authourity of the State shouldn't be allowed ,they are the Most vicious as they think they have to prove themselves to their Hetro police Bro's .Crazy stuff with guns.

It all started when i met a young hetrosexual women who has been HIV Positive from birth telling me of her experiences with the LGBTIQC.19 years of systematic door closing and persecution by the LGBTIQC.In Australia.

 

Investigations can and typically would provide witnesses and evidence that someone is homosexual. As a member of the military, I know how well that tends to work... especially with the trail that internet activity leaves.

 

Nothing special about manhating Homosexual women now is there given any opurtunity a Gay bashing they will go ,no wonder they are separated in the LBGTIQC,

I can't blame the homosexual Male Community for hiding behind the Bisexual community in the LBGTIQC,Female homsexual thugs should be put in male jail where they want to be .Will get them real up close and personal with their Maleness .Mind you in Male Jail they had better pull their Man hating heads in .

Not all Homosexual women are Man hating Thugs,in fact most are lovely nice people ,but those that use the description of Dyke Feminist Lesbians and proud ,I find to be Pathological Man Haters ,to the point of Mental illness, Bullies ,and real warped nasty screwed up in the head type people ,similar to Women Hating men!

yeah put them with the male prisoners they would soon learn to contain their thugish tendencies of man hating .

 

Stop hating, vilifying and bashing gays.

 

i have respect and defend Homosexuals ,as far as Gays whoever they are is yet to be determined .

Gays are not by definition Homosexuals.

Different words different meanings ,see thats what is meant by Language ,I am yet to meet a Gay human except those of us that are Happy,but as far as a Political definition which support politically is DEPENDENT on , "Gay " and "Lesbian "[except for the people of the Island of lesbos] are not Political definitions ,and I agree with you

Happy people should not be bashed vilified or hated.

In fact they never are ,when have you seen a happy person treated in such a way ,stop creating things that do not exist ,Happy people could only be attacked by the Miserable .

Happy people is not a political definition .

Gay=Happy do you have a dictionary its a word derived from the French "Gaiety"

What the hell are you talking about ,vilification of Happy people just dosen't happen EVER!

We are talking about serious questions concerning the oppression of Homosexual people ,and you strat some silly rubbish about the Happy people in the community being vilified ,are you poking fun at my Homosexual friends ,

pull your head in Homosexual hater ,you are disgusting with your attacks on Homosexual Rights ,

And as far as "Gay" rights well its an emotional state being happy ,so go to the Humour section you are in the wrong place Wordphobic thats what you are a coward!

Why do you spit and attack the memory of Homosexual people who struggled for Equality in the Past ???

 

Knowledge 'Maybe helpful'your ignorance is definitly not.Most people are not as arrogant as you and before they start tapping on a subject they STUDY it ,instead of just coming up with whatever idea seems attractive at the time.


Thats why some people use disrespectful and derogortory slang terms like "Gay" and "Lesbian "and 'Queer" and 'Poof" and "(*)(*)(*)".In their crude rude attacks on Homosexuals.Every time you see 'Gay " think demeaning poking fun at Vilification .

i notice you are a defender of Vilification and demeaning language against Homosexuals ,note the Word DE-MEANING the opposite of MEANING or Definition or Identity.

Gay,Poofter ,Faagg,are all demeaning to the Homosexual community .

Sorry to any of my Homosexual friends i do use these words only for demonstration ,be Homosexual and proud my brothers and Sisters remember those that struggled and suffered so as HOMOSEXUALITY not GAYALITY is the beacon that it is for equality of an oppressed minority.

Always remember that when Oscar Wilde,made reference to 'the love that dare not speak its name 'he was refering to homosexual Love.

He rose above those that vilified him called him him crude biggoted names like poofter,gay ,Faagg .and other demeaning terms.