Let's Call Trumpism what it is - American Fascism.

And it is just now dawning on his minions that their coup has failed.

 

agree that theocracies are evil, though it seems to be the religious right pushing those, not the left

 

What a load of hogwash.

First lets start with your examples. "Slavery". That wasn't about authoritarianism. And it certainly was not restricted to Christians like your post implies (since you only single out Christians). Slavery came about due to lack of knowledge. The people at the time believed anyone not like them were no better than animals. That is why you will find slavery in pretty much every culture at some point in their history.

Next lets look at you what you believe about Rights vs equality. While the US has not always acted like it, especially if you only look at it from current times point of view, the fundamental nature of the US IS about both Rights and equality. In fact you cannot have one with out the other. The problem a lot of people have now a days is in thinking that there are more Rights held than there actually are. For example the lefts obsession with "hate speech". Believing that anyone that commits "hate speech" (which is subjective) is someone that should be punished, in some circles even jailed. Hate speech in its essence is about offense taken. Problem with that is that no one has a Right to not be offended. But those that cry out against hate speech certainly thinks that they have such a Right. Such thought is authoritarian by the way.

Next is your claim of "xenophobic nationalism". Since that is in reference to "Trumpism" I'll speak towards that. The VAST majority of people, including the vast majority of Trump supporters are not xenophobic, despite the lefts claim. That is nothing more than a political talking point that anyone that doesn't like the right uses to try and dehumanize those on the right. (in fact the majority of Trump voters supported letting Dreamers stay in the US according to polls) Its much easier to discount those that you believe to be not worthy of consideration. So the left does whatever it can to make those on the right seem evil and underserving of being listened to. In any case Trump, or the vast majority of Trump supporters have no problems with LEGAL immigration. No matter the country. They also just want to make sure that whoever does come here legally are self sufficient and won't be a drain on society. Now, I have no doubt that you and others will scoff at this. I'm quite sure that I won't be able to change your minds on this. In today's polarization I don't give either side much credit in the listening or thinking department. So this will be the only time I will address this particular subject in this thread.

Now for your attempt at separating left/right from "Trumpism". The only reason that you did this was because you recognize that not all those on the right supported Trump and as such didn't want to leave yourself open to the argument of "what about......". I'm sure that in 4 years time you will probably post something similar to what you just said here in a new post/thread either on this forum or some other. Only you won't be able to claim "Trumpism" so you'll just lump all those on the right into your authoritarianism mantra. I find your attempt to separate to be hollow at best, but typical of leftist ideology of Identitarianism.

 

Completely untrue regarding equality. Free market capitalists value competition and self-interested greed. In this realm, the competent are rewarded at a higher rate than the incompetent and the hard working are rewarded at a higher rate than the indolent. In this realm, the nations that value competence DOMINATE the nations that do not.

More humans have been murdered in the past 150 years by their governments in the quest for "equality" than by all other causes combined.

When powerful elites in your country begin promoting the concept of equality, it almost a certainty that the body bags will begin being filled shortly. Equality can only be enforced by killing or suppressing the competent. It can only ever work as a means to increase human misery.

 

I think that @Modus Ponens addressed your points appropriately and thoroughly. But I would like to add to this one that this is a misconception that has been popularized on the right precisely by the most fascist propagandists that seek an authoritarian model of government. The idea that we are not a democracy is actually what is very recent. Dating from... probably the last two decades. Nobody of consequence doubted or questioned that we are a Democracy before these fascists started beefing up the propaganda.

It's simply a misconception about the modern meaning of the terms. We live in a Federal Democratic Republic. The fact is that "Democracy" and "Republic", from an etymological pov are interchangeable. They mean the same thing. And it's valid to use them interchangeably in a colloquial conversation. Just that "Democracy" comes from Latin and "Republic" from the Greek. But in modern times, "Federal" refers to how our nation is administratively organized: in semi-autonomous states under the "umbrella" of a federal government. "Democratic" means that we are not a dictatorship. And Republic means that we are not a monarchy. We have been a Democratic nation since the offset. This is why very early we had a "Democratic Party". Right-wingers love to point out discussions, especially from Madison, in which our founding fathers spoke, not about "democracy", but about "pure democracy". The latter being the concept of democracy generally applied to certain stages of democracy in ancient times in places like Rome and Athens. Other than that, there is no nation in the world that has the "pure democracy" that Madison mentions. Nor has there been since our foundation.

We have always lived in a democracy. The final paragraph in The Gettysburg Address is the very definition of what we know today as "democracy". The meaning of the word "democracy" that the propagandists use is neither the modern one, nor the one our forefathers used. They just made up their own.

 

This may be a bit of a divergence from the topic of Trump's failure, but it is certainly consistent with the topic of his fascism.

Separating well over 600 children from their parents with no possible way of reconnecting them at any time in the future, is a crime against humanity. Trump and his allies should stand trial at The Hague for this.

 

Oh yeah. It was content-free. A post consisting of only personal opinions with no citations is properly called "content-free".

 

I'm just looking at the evidence, indeed the plain facts. Authoritarianism is popular, even in democracies (certainly not just ours). If some people are ashamed to confront that fact, well that is some form of progress, at least.

 

Fascism: leftist brownshirts rioting, looting, burning, beating peaceful citizens for half a year
Fascism: leftist thugs intimidating, silencing, "canceling" the opposition, chasing speakers off campuses and other venues for thought-crime
Fascism: liberal media resorting to misinformation, smear and outright censorship
Fascism: corrupt, left-affiliated rogue dirty cops illegally spying on a political campaign
Fascism: 3 year long witch hunt and fishing expedition by holdouts of the previous regime, looking for a crime (not investigating one) in their effort to disenfranchise the population

The fascist left accusing others of fascism - RICH.

 

He only addressed them 'appropriately and thoroughly' on the side of the Democratic believers. That is, if you were already convinced of the view then there's nothing that could be said otherwise. It is an oxymoron to proclaim a 'Democratic Republic'. it is not possible for a limited central government under a democratic umbrella. That's the dilemma that we face now.

The other dilemma, as I said is that democracy is prone to corruption, infighting and national division. The Founders despised democracy. Not merely 'pure' democracy, as the democratic propagandists would have you believe. But all of 'democracy' and it's ill-ridden concept. The Greeks fell, today Greece is but a shadow of itself because of its democratic institutions.

We are at the same point as the Roman Senate, where the inflection of democracy and vested parties and interests tore the country apart piece by piece. Democracy is corrupt, because it's natural pure state is corruption.

Democracy is a dictatorship by majority rule, where the minority is disenfranchised, and the minority's only hope is that at some point they might, for a small time perhaps regain a slimmer of a majority. But because of this, the democracy is incapable of uniting the people.

If America were founded with a democracy(circa 1950), we wouldn't have lasted. Think of our very steep and quick decline. Who would want to rebel against the British Crown for a failed democratic State? Despite the King's abuses, it would have been more preferable to simply have the colonies become a proper part of Britain, than just a colony.

No one approves of our democracy, no one believes in the "golden age" that it spread around the world. It's a myth as badly told as its consequences have given us terrorists who attack the United States, and now for the foreseeable future we will deal with claims of "election interference", though we can neither see it nor quantify it.

They didn't fight and die for a failed democracy, they fought and died for a Free State. One that broke free from the traditional two-way paradigm of politics. But we can no longer be a Republic, actually. We're way too populous and way too big for a small autonomous Republic.

Either America is to formally be recognized as an Empire, or it will dissolve in the next 15-30 years, as the precious 'democracy' cannot hold up the divisions its created. The Democratic Party has tormented these divisions, psychologists have all but come out and told us the democratic propaganda has created these divisions and yet they fester on.

But the point of this thread isn't the necessary political reconfiguration of the nation, but rather the OP's blindingly misguided assertion of the "Christian" rule of the Republican Party, and then further mixing that into Fascism without the slightest actual clue of Fascism, other than to assert a "cult of the leader", when Fascism utterly rejects individuality as a concept of government.

Had he read Mussolini's Doctrine of Fascism, he would've actually learned about Fascism as a concept, not as what he was taught.

 

It's just too true, sadly. People - by the millions - have seen all that Trump represents, in all its infamy, and said "Yeah I want more of that." After this brush with American Fascism, it's really not difficult for me to see how Hitler came to power, it's much easier for me to understand how the Founders could have doubts about the long-term viability of democracy.

 

Pretty funny. Fascism is a system of government, not citizens. And most of your examples could be instances of people taking action AGAINST fascism. And that uncertainty indicates a vague, sloppy definition of "fascism".

 

It's not 'American Fascism', for Trump failed on two important points: To centralize the State, as well as to build the unified nation-state around its common aims, or its arms or both. If Trump had acted to unify or centralize the State, you would actually have a point. But he didn't, so you don't have one.

Again, Fascism utterly rejects the individual(actually, rejects is too strong. It's better to say it incorporates the individual within the State). You cannot claim both that Trump is a fascist, and that he's individualistic. His individuality, and his inability to unify his cabinet/government is proof that he's not a fascist.

Had he been a fascist, he shouldn't have reached out to the neoconservatives and tried to build his cabinet with a mix of those and those sympathetic to the Nationalist agenda. It might have got him the WH, but it was terrible for an actual administration of government.

He was caught from behind, on day one as he felt the 'pressure' to add these people since he wanted to be adored and praised by 'traditional conservatives'(like those of the Lincoln Project). Aww, how cute.

If I had been in power, not a single neocon would've been even so much as offered a cabinet position. And yes, that uses the 'existence' of the empty seat as a viable threat to McConnell that lest I get the picks I want, the seat will remain empty. I don't mind, it can work just as well with associates or as we later learned "acting" members of the cabinet.

One thing is definitely clear, that we do agree on: Neither the Nationalist movement for the nation, nor the traditional guardians of democracy can ever align. For what they guard is a government of corruption, and what we syndicalists aim for is a unified State.

 

Fascism is an ideology, people practicing fascism remain fascists even if/when they are out of power. Political persecutions, illegal spying, suppression of free speech, brownshirts' violence, censorship, dehumanization of the opposition... these are all clear and undeniable manifestations of fascist ideology, all of them practiced by modern day leftists.

PS if you prefer me to call it stalinism/communism I'd be fine with that as well, both ideologies put this tactic to good use.

 

Interesting that you assert that Trump isn't a fascist since he didn't succeed at fully establishing a fascist nation, but with the exact opposite perspective you say we have seen socialist and communist countries even though none has ever established a stable, finished, functioning socialism. I'd say you're wrong on both counts. Trump's actions moved us well in the direction of fascism, which means he is a failed fascist, but a fascist nonetheless.

 

"Fascism: A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, a capitalist economy subject to stringent governmental controls, violent suppression of the opposition, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism."
https://www.thefreedictionary.com/fascism

I quoted you referring to "fascism" which is defined as a system of government. Now you want to pivot to the greater "safety" of a discussion of "fascist". The two are different. And I'm not addressing moved goalposts.

 

This is an interesting take. You assert to call Trump a Fascist due to his failures, and link it to the Socialist excuse of "never seeing an established, finished, functioning socialism". There's a difference however. We have seen Fascist states(IE: The AXIS, although it's important to note that Italy largely rejected Hitler's racist program until they thought they had no choice. I wish Mussolini had stuck to his guns. But considering that Italy was a relatively minor power in Europe, it's not too surprising that they turned heel.)

One of the biggest disappointments, even by the West at the time and in history is that the west/Mussolini couldn't hook up. Had they done so, it would've been a huge setback for the formation of an AXIS to begin with, as Japan was way too focused on Asia to care about geopolitics on a grander scale.

Because we have seen the efficiency and effectiveness of a centralized State, we know what it looks like. Let's not kid ourselves. The failure to create one(and actually, at many times the lack of interest in creating one. Remember, your side says he only 'appeals' to his base.), but the AXIS nations were known for their fanatics. Fanticism cannot be created by a meager base.

means he wasn't a Fascist. In terms of his actual POLICIES, he was really a liberal Republican that Democrats missed out on, so many opportunities to get democratic wins. Maybe they'll get them under Biden so that'll salvage it somewhat, but you'll recognize you missed an opportunity to further weaken the GOP.

On the other hand, we cannot say we've never seen an "established, functioning socialism". That's because from Russia, to Cuba, to China to Venezuela it's all the SAME THING. How can people from different nations, with different theologists come to the SAME conclusion and for it not to be the same?

Socialists have never explained that. Because to acknowledge it, is to remove this "we've never truly seen it" fairy tale.

 

Nope, but a nice spin. I assert he is a fascist because of what he has done.

 

HA! As IF the unrest we have seen this past summer just blew up out of nowhere! As if the flames of division were not deliberately stoked at the highest levels (TRUMP, for your information)!

The ideological division and street-protest we have been seeing is a feature of countries that are falling under the grip of Fascist authorities. Through the 1920's and into the 1930's in Germany, there were ongoing street-battles between Rightists of various types, and Socialists. A standard trick for Fascist leaders on the make, is to use their nonuniformed allies to stir up street-unrest, and use it as a pretext bring down the hammer of the State against their political opponents. Which was exactly the Trump regime's response to protests against systemic police violence! It is TEXTBOOK Fascism.

And, even then - when it comes to looting and "rioting," if you want to talk about serious examples, you need to look back to the riots that convulsed cities across the country during the Civil Rights era of the 1960's. The unrest and property damage we see today is just a shadow of what happened back then, and today that period is remembered not for the violence, but as a trying moment in American history which was necessary for social progress. It's the ubiquity of the media landscape today, that is able to take every incident of public violence and magnify it in the public perception - plus the essential bad-faith of conservatives (same bad faith that they had resisting civil rights progess in the '60's) in taking political advantage of the media-driven hysteria, calling isolated pitched battles here and there (which conservative agitators have their own share of the blame in) "riots." But it all goes with the Fascist narrative - the Orwellian Big Lie of calling those who are protesting against their systemic oppression, calling those who are the victims, (including the ultimate victims of the property damage!) "thugs" and criminals. But Fascists will always side with the oppressor.

I will agree, that Cancel-Culture is fundamentally illiberal and does not represent true American traditions of political discourse, without fear or favor; but 1) it is an illiberalism that is associated with organically emerging, deep-rooted cultural changes, some of which are positive 2) as such it amounts to more of a cultural shift, which no one person is responsible for and which is hard (if not impossible) to stop - which is in great contrast to the deliberate elevation by voters to power of a textbook Fascist Demagogue, and all this enablers and all the institution-burning effects that that has brought to our national political life. In terms of damage done to our democratic polity, there is simply no comparison. A significant minority of the population has turned against democracy, we are in a House Divided; in comparison to that your complaints about political correctness are a joke.

Misinformation? More of the Orwellian Big Lie - accusing your opponents of the exact thing YOU are guilty of. Your political allies control the biggest bullhorn in television news (which is the actual fake news!)! Fascist propagandists dominate on the radio, peddling lies 24/7, ginning up popular support for insane conspiracy-theories... and yet when Social Media companies exercise the slightest bit of responsibility to the public by fact-checking the most ludicrous kinds of claims coming from the Conservosphere, suddenly it's censorship! Just Orwellian.

Just another paranoid fever-dream of the Fascists. Of course if the cops are trying to root out your corruption, the cops are going to be the bad guys!

You voted for a Crook, a Mob boss. NO surprise that most of the crew he assigned to positions of power are crooks, too. NO surprise that so many of his campaign staff were indicted and convicted! You were very lucky that Mueller - a Republican - was so timid when it came to pursuing the investigation of Trump himself. You were very lucky that Trump was able to find an AG who had zero independence, but instead would serve as the Demagogue's defender and political mouthpiece. Trump deserved to be impeached & convicted ten times over, based only on what we know right now. One can only imagine how you types would be braying for blood if Hillary were President and did only 1/100 of what Trump did. The hypocrisy is indeed staggering - but it is ALL on YOUR SIDE.

 

It's not a spin, it's literally what you said. You called him a "failed Fascist". History will record that I quoted you appropriately.

 

Fascism, political ideology and mass movement
https://www.britannica.com/topic/fascism

Checkmate.

 

As president, Trump IS a failed fascist who tried to establish himself as a fascist dictator and fortunately failed. Individuals who exhibit one or two of the 14 major characteristics of a fascist are not fascist due to the vague similarity and due to not actively striving for public office. The main discrepancy is the absence of the other dozen major characteristics of fascists. It's a bit like someone saying Biden suffers dementia because he almost stutters on occasion. Far more evidence is required.

 

Ok let's play your game. You said "Fascism is an ideology, people practicing fascism remain fascists"

And as "evidence" you listed the following:
1. Fascism: leftist brownshirts rioting, looting, burning, beating peaceful citizens for half a year
2. Fascism: leftist thugs intimidating, silencing, "canceling" the opposition, chasing speakers off campuses and other venues for thought-crime
3. Fascism: liberal media resorting to misinformation, smear and outright censorship
4. Fascism: corrupt, left-affiliated rogue dirty cops illegally spying on a political campaign
5. Fascism: 3 year long witch hunt and fishing expedition by holdouts of the previous regime, looking for a crime (not investigating one) in their effort to disenfranchise the population.

The first is a reference to rioting. Those rioters who were caught carrying out such acts and who were questioned, all turned out to be anarchists (extreme left fringe) and white supremacists. BLM was not involved although some of the perps wore BLM T-shirts to mislead you.

The next, #2, is a reference to people taking action to oppose fascism and fascists. Since fascists are well known to have nothing positive to offer society but only hate and destruction, depriving them of their "right" to free speech is fine with me once it is clear they are representing fascism.

#3 - never happened on the MSM I watch and listen to. But again, stopping the spreading of fascist propaganda is a fine tradition.

#4 - never happened. There were well-founded suspicions based on solid evidence and requiring .... REQUIRING .... proper investigation by authorities.

#5 - That is an expected characterization of investigation prompted by observed behavior of the subject and which was a concern shared by a long list of the heads of state of other countries. So "witch hunt"? No. Just an objection spun by Trump supporters.

 

Nonsense offering the opinions of others does not differ radically

 

Laughable. Let's actually take a step back and look at what really happened in real time. In real time, Trump had a civil rights investigation in literally record time in the George Floyd shooting. No matter, that didn't stop them from rioting and destroying the town of Minneapolis. In response to that, Trump said "when the rioting starts, the shooting starts." He was correct. We as a nation, regardless of political model cannot allow for some citizens to burn, assault(sometimes sexual assault as the case was in CHAZ-Seattle) and intimidate their fellow citizens because of the untimely death of ONE citizen.


I want to know, which one of the citizens pulled out of their cars or blocked on the road were Trump supporters who deserved to be treated violently by their fellow man? And how is any of it in support of a democratic movement?(The laughable assertion you made below.).

The sad thing, wasn't Trump's response to them. It was the lack of response by everyone else. As the "resistance" rose in full violence, we became aware that our bloodied democracy has very little chance for long term sustainability. We cannot live in a country where if the wrong person dies, a company(dunkin donuts) gets burned.

While everyone was harping on the "proud boys", as Trump said: Where was the left on these would be revolutionaries?(That you slightly, barely condemned later). Nowhere, and the reason they're nowhere to be found is that as VP Harris said: We are going to suffer this, after the elections.(And we did, in the middle of election night, riots again attacked America!)

No one is under any delusion that these violent anarchists and terrorists love this country, no one is also under any other illusion that they are Trump sleeper cells. We know this, because of the epic tragedy that is Portland.

Democrats proved that they couldn't govern, that's why they lost quite a few House seats and have a narrower House majority.

In this year alone, because of the anarchist revolutionaries, we lost an 8 year old and a 14 year old. And a 60 year old was shot in his car in Utah. We will never forget the violence and bloodshed in the name of resistance.

This is the most laughable thing you've posted yet. They weren't nonuniformed. For starters, they always wore their SS bands but that's entirely besides the point of contention(other than to once again, your interpretation of history and how history ACTUALLY happened is two different things.). Despite claiming "street-battles of Rightists of various types", the Trump supporter in Portland I don't even want to use the word 'murder', he was assassinated. Literally, in broad daylight(or rather out in the open), he was shot and killed by one of YOURS. A resistance wielding murderer who opened fire on police officers, and bragged about the right he had to kill another human being.

And why don't we bring up the Church Fire. Literally, earlier THAT day these actors were broaching the WH gates. That they were even allowed to protest in the area at all, is another sign that Trump's not a Fascist. That they were dispersed some 15 minutes before the 7 PM allotted time, is not of convenience. And as far as it being a "prop"? We later see the entire democratic leadership dress up in some African garb and kneeling down, as an even more embarrassing prop.

In a normal crime scene, the church(and the surrounding area) would've been taped off and no one would've been allowed there. It's amazing how the anarchist side was given the "room" once again to seek and destroy and for that same side to declare Fascist tactics. It's remarkable how two faced the far left can be.

So while in your world, you see yourself as resisting Nazis. I see violators of law, I see agitators and killers. And I see a government that was all too apathetic, including the now fired secretary of defense, who refused to do his duty to country and nation when called upon.

That apathy is not without consequence. Now Biden is the head of the government. And he will be expected to be as apathetic as the resistance was. If he's not, not only will he lose legitimacy among your crowd, but the conservatives will roar with fury that while they called our officers "storm troopers", they now claim to protect the country that they didn't allow Trump to protect.

Further disenfranchising the American government, and thereby the American People. Had Biden said something stronger, had his VP actually said something stronger, sure the kiddies would've been disheartened, but if you really wanted a Purple United States, the moderates and Republicans would've been on board.

"just a shadow", kids died for the cause but it's just a shadow of the damage of the 60's. I think law abiding citizens remember the Rodney King Riots and wouldn't call the desolation of that area a "shadow" of the damage. I also love that while citizens must suffer the oppression of violence by other citizens, pointing this out has become "bad-faith". Almost as if we must allow left anarchists to murder and destroy until the blood lust is satiated.

Even worse than this, you propagandize that these law abiding citizens, who are blocked on the road(kudos to governor De Santis for addressing this in Florida) aren't the victims, the ones who caused the damage are the victims!(Because the stores would leave the area, rightly so.). If you feel a victim because of that, my advice would be to tell the far left comrades to stop attacking your fellow citizens and burning down businesses in their areas. The sooner they stop, the sooner all violence stops.


Fascists don't side with the oppressor, the oppressor is the one who breaks the law. The oppressor is the one who oppresses citizens from living their lives without fear of attack, without fear of being blocked. There was a call about a kid and her mother being terrified on the road, and as she called city council, she was told they could do nothing.

The anarchists will always be on the wrong side of history, even if they succeeded through violence and intimidation in getting Biden to the WH.

The said political correctness(violent political intimidation) gave reason to the end of democracy. If you complain that a person like me has a much larger audience than before, you might want to take a look at deeper reasons than "OMG, they're racists". Especially given Trump's gains among minorities cannot be understated.

And the institutions weren't burned by Trump. They were burned by themselves, they were burned by lying to the nation in public, and then in private actually saying the truth. Because of the nature of the hearings, they were allowed to be dupitious to the nation and actually caused the current circumstances.

Trump didn't tell them to lie, I didn't tell them to lie either. They chose to lie, of their own accord and as a result, I don't trust them anymore for whatever that's worth.

Its not their job to "fact check" a claim. Actually, it's no one's job to fact check a claim. Fact checking itself, is a form of censorship by claiming that certain "facts" are the truth, and that other facts are libel. While this may bore out to be true, it's only by evaluation of the set of facts, independently, virtuously to lead to that conclusion.