Let's debunk one of liberals' belief — healthcare should be a fundamental right

taxes, see what they are used for ? benefitting society, and people from first world countries with universal healthcare dont go to the states for surgery, we can get just as good care here but free why would you leave

 

That's the problem. It should be. We should have that type of choice.

This is exactly what I am doing.

LOL It HAD a lot of money to fix. They pumped MILLIONS into schools, parks, clinics and the welfare program. They build houses-- you have NO idea what you are talking about. When that much money, that much "free" stuff is given to a community that is then walled off see how well people take care of it. They don't. When you have to save and work for something you take care of it better.

Sure I give money to the GLBT suicide network and youth center. I give a lot to veterans, animals, and people with special needs. Mexicans...probably through my church, that I don't know about.

There are more white people in America for now, so probably more white people get charity.

Yep. They were huge programs. You seem to be missing this. Those programs were in place for 40 years and all they did was create a culture of dependency and entitlement. Even if you refused to go to the job training you still got money. When they changed it to a requirement for entitlement, liberals protested and the requirement was scratched.

What happened here in the US was that they gave people houses, food or stamps for food, medical cards, schools, free phones, and transportation dollars.

In return people liked this free stuff and had ZERO incentive to work or want to get off the program.

Thereby leaving people with true and real (not temporary) needs stuck in the same pot with people who were gaming the system. As cities started to grow broke from people having too many children or too many workers on welfare, everyone took the hit--even those with legitimate needs.

You cannot give people free stuff for an indeterminate period of time. Anyone--you or I---would grow accustomed to it. What's the incentive to get off it?

We created a subculture and cultures are difficult to break. So, yes, abandon the program and put it back to communities to help individuals. Bill Clinton was actually pro-faith based programs and gave the nod to a few pilot cities to use them. They found they were better at getting people OFF assistance than public programs.

BUT people here are weird about their money going to religious groups so it never made it out of the pilot stages.

I know you're not from here because you think you know what its like and yet have no idea. This is the environment that I grew up in and I think I understand it better--no offense--then someone who only can speak for their own system.

And?

 

Nor does a corporation have a fundimental right not to pay taxes.

 

So, I guess we are to be a nation ruled by government and not by the people? See, you liberals show your true colors eventually.

 

Who is corporation? People pay taxes, not corporations. What people make up a corporation? Consumers, workers and investors. If you are wanting to tax your boogieman, you have to go after him in a different way.

 

This is ironic given the number of people in America who are (to use your term) "brainwashed" into accepting the premise of a right to healthcare. How do you think we got medicare, medicaid and Obamacare in the first place?

 

no it shouldnt and no you dont, dont kid yourself on youre more free there than anywhere else

that is such a naive view, make it tough for them so they appreciate it, how about giving them a helping hand to improve their lives, and if millions didnt work then it clearly needs billions, youre happy to spend it blowing people up as a nation how about educating them and helping them get jobs

irrelevant, you will never cover all the bases that govt has to

you say they created a culture of dependency and entitlement (they are actually entitled you know), that doesnt make it so, you are just brainwashed by the media, nobody who is on welfare wouldnt rather have a good paying job, its just wrong to say that made people lazy thats right wing claptrap as an excuse to cut taxes. lack of hope makes people lazy. if you can live an okay life on welfare or a great life working and that great life is a realistic possibility any human wants that. the problem is under investment in these communities removed that possibility for these people. there is no american dream for them, go and look at the stats for social mobility from their demographic, look at the public school system and see if you think the two are related.

cities and america went broke from tax rates going down and down not expenses going up

yes you can when the alternative is starving them, the incentive is even better stuff if you work for it

so what you really mean is remove the safety net and leave it up to charity ? the typical republican nonseniscal position that really translates to Im not paying for it cause I dont need it. very humane.

I dont think you do understand it better given some of your views, and all liberal democracies have similar problems so I understand it just fine thanks. I also happen to live on a continent that allows me to see different solutions to the ones you have ever been able to see so I know there are other ways, you think there arent.

 

Here is my old city. These were once designated low income houses that people were either placed in or given low rents by the city (previous to this it was a working class neighborhood. This is how well people take care of things they don't pay for:



Every street in my neighborhood had at least 2-3 burnt out houses (thanks Devil's Night!) because once a year the "fun" thing to do was set fire to houses. Mind you, everyone had free food (if they chose to spend the money on that instead of booze or drugs), free healthcare, free schools, free bus fare, and free phones and utilities.

Here is the government's "free" housing 40 years later:



So...you think these programs are well run?

 

exactly, thats govts job, but its okay cause govt is people, corporations arent but govt is, govt for of and by the people see what I mean ? people rule people but they have to have govt to do it

 

because some people can see through the brainwashing

 

You are like the fool who eats the goose who lays the golden eggs. BTW, people die of cancer everyday, in every country. I would rather preserve the principles that provide prosperity(not eat the goose) than slowly wither into dispare and riots.

 

come on grow up I was growing to quite like you but this is facile nonsense. those houses are EMPTY. nobody lives there. do you go around tending to empty houses to make sure they stay tidy ? no, so why should anyone else. those houses are EMPTY cause the people who lived in them lost their JOBS, so moved somewhere else. nobody took those houses up cause there were no jobs there, so nobody moved there. kids burn houses cause there are lots of empty ones, cause the people who used to live in them lost their jobs.

 

come on grow up I was growing to quite like you but this is facile nonsense. those houses are EMPTY. nobody lives there. do you go around tending to empty houses to make sure they stay tidy ? no, so why should anyone else. those houses are EMPTY cause the people who lived in them lost their JOBS, so moved somewhere else. nobody took those houses up cause there were no jobs there, so nobody moved there. kids burn houses cause there are lots of empty ones, cause the people who used to live in them lost their jobs.

 

So you believe that 30% of all people in the world are so abysmally stupid and/or talentless that they would starve if you didn't feed them? You don't see this as a problem?

First, I'm not a Republican. Second, I think there are better ways of helping people, ways that work. Unlike many, 3/4 of the people in this world that I love best are poor or are not poor because they have a great criminal mindset. Do you think I left Detroit with my middle finger pointed behind me? **** with that (*)(*)(*)(*). I am a ghetto girl at heart. I have been trying to get ALL my friends out, get them on their feet, help them. When they need bail money...I'm there. I consult with their attorneys. I send them tickets to come see me. I helped finance my friend's after market business.

People will get out because their friends LIFT them out. If I could I would drive a bus back into Detroit and kidnap the people that I love and take them out of there, I would but too many of them are institutionalized right now.

This you don't get because you don't live here. You don't know how hard it is to get their mental game to the point where you can even help them. So don't lecture me. I've put more tears, more money into helping people escape then you will ever know.

These are my people, my homies, my peeps. I would probably still even go to jail for one of them if they called me up. So don't place a lack of love or charity on me. I want people OUT and I see the destruction liberals have done with their idea of "charity".

[/quote]

Your continent has different problems and a different culture. Apples to oranges.

 

Basic human rights should not be a matter of cold economic calculations and empty ideological arguments. Healthcare is one of them, it is not any less important than justice or safety in my book. That does not necessarily mean full socialism, after all food is also a human right, yet food companies are usualy private. It just means that access has to be guaranteed somehow.

 

You have no idea. The house next to the burnt one has people in it. They get to live by a fire hazard where vagrants move in. They didn't MOVE somewhere else. Let's grab Mikezila or Bow to the Robots--other Detroiters and they will tell you the same. The house next door to me looked just like that first one.

That second one...that's NYC project housing.

 

Yes, Charlie, here there is a doctor shortage now and it will get worse. It's documented. It's fact. It's true.

Doctor Shortage Likely to Worsen with Health Law

A Looming US Doctor Shortage

Doctor shortage could take turn for the worse

 

Your continent has different problems and a different culture. Apples to oranges.[/QUOTE]



no, but people on welfare with no other means of generating short term income most certainly would if you removed the safety net as you propse

I didnt say you were, but you have assumed the typical republican position on that issue. you sound like a nice person and I'm interested to hear more about your criminal friends.

their friends shouldnt have to lift them out. in the richest country in the world they should never have needed lifting in the first place but if they do the govt should do that.

I'm sure you have but people are the same everywhere, so our problems are the same as yours, maybe not in scale but the same problems.

I didnt place a lack of charity on you, Im saying it shouldnt be necessary for you to do that, I also think youre wrong to label liberals the enemy, they are the one group who want to help these people. I think your media does that, demonises liberals when they are actually all about doing good stuff.

it doesnt, we both live in liberal democracies that have embraced free market capitalism. its just the accents that are different.

 

most of the houses are empty though, they are the ones that are not looked after. the public housing in new york all you show is a picutre of some buildings, they look okay to me, bit grimey, are you suggesting the residents should be scaling the walls on ladders to clean the brickwork ?

 

most of the houses are empty though, they are the ones that are not looked after. the public housing in new york all you show is a picutre of some buildings, they look okay to me, bit grimey, are you suggesting the residents should be scaling the walls on ladders to clean the brickwork ?

 

so the country without universal healthcare has a doctor shortage and those with it dont ? dont you think that suggests theres something wrong with your system thats not wrong with ours ?

 

You cannot do it right away or entirely because they now have NO TOOLS to fend for themselves (thanks liberals). You would have to change the system entirely to one where there is a time limit for assistance and or incentivise getting off assistance quicker.

I'm not against ALL forms of support, but it should be bare-boned and work with churches (yes, I said it--most of the people in Detroit are religious believe it or not), community groups, etc.

Well, I'm not trying to talk about their game. Gotta keep it on the DL.

Yes, yes they should. You don't love them like I love them. The government doesn't love them. It's an impersonal entity. In our neighborhood, we take care of each other. We are loyal to each other. I haven't lived there in 15 years but I still keep in touch, I still visit. The (*)(*)(*)(*)hole that is Detroit bonds people to each other. It's difficult to break from that mindset. People feel disloyal when they leave. They feel disloyal for GETTING AHEAD.

It is a culture now. I felt guilty doing well in life. I don't think you can really understand this.

If liberals loved them they would place low income housing right next to their houses, they wouldn't segregate the poor to one section of town. They would do a lot of things differently.

 

Here you go people. This poster has stated EXACTLY what the Republican/Romney/Ryan Healthcare plan will be: A LUXURY, for those who can afford it. The rest of you? F OFF and die or try going to the Emergency room, where they maybe will let you die in the waiting room, because YOU have NO RIGHT to expect healthcare unless you are already well off enough to pay for it.

 

sorry I'm hungry so will reply later

 

sorry I'm hungry so will reply later