http://uk.businessinsider.com/presi...e-pen-clash-during-tv-debate-2017-4?r=US&IR=T This is why I don't understand how people like Le Pen are able to pick up so much support. Over the top nationalisn is responsible for millions of deaths and the greatest tragedies in human history. Europe was in a state of perpetual death and war until World War II ended and people finally realized we should work together to promote peace and prosperity rather than demonize everyone else on the planet and pretend that we are somehow more important than them. Macron was right on the money here.
Well lets hope she does not get elected. However historian Tim Snyder has worked out three ingredients which are there when people move towards fascism and they were obvious I would say in Trumps election and to some extent in the English Brexit. The first thing would be the way reality is treated. Fascism denies facts. It replaces them with myths, legends, a sense of unity. I can remember in the Trump election people saying that there are not any facts just people's opinion. Democracy is built on there being some truth we can all agree on. Some experts we trust. Trust in our judiciary and so on. If that gets lost democracy is losing its foundation. The second is that the Institutions, rules, checks and balances on which democracy depend stop mattering. The only thing which matters is national unity. and the third goes along with that and with the conception of Globalisation which is no longer seen as an objective challenge. Instead Globalisation has a face. Globalisation can be the Jews, or the Mexicans, or the Chinese or Muslims or whoever it might be.Instead of appreciating that there is a genuine world out there full of problems which need to be met and resolved it is all us against the other evil which we must protect ourselves from. So these are the ingredients, people no longer trust facts, they no longer respect norms and public institutions and instead of trying to work out situations they believe it is all an external enemy which they put a face on. The 1930's had a very similar situation to today. There was prolonged recession, people had lost trust in their political elite and they felt threatened by Globalisation. These elements were there in Brexit though far more in Trump and his supporters. To some extent it may depend on how much the French have lost faith in their democracy how they vote but even if they vote for Penn, the chances are they will not be thinking they are voting for fascism. They will just see that as a jibe - apart from those whose intention it is of course.
Of course the other bit is the psychological orientation. Research shows that it is authoritarian kinds who are drawn to well, the authoritarian types who will go on to create totalitarian societies. In addition when a certain number of things come together people with a 'latent' kind of authoritarianism come to the fore and that situation is like we have now. In the States for instance we have the wwc seeing their standard of living deteriorating and instead of being able to rely on an increasing good standard of living if they worked, they can no longer rely on a job. This has caused a massive increase in drug and alcohol problems as well as suicide in wwc American Men. In addition to this the change in demography means they will soon no longer be the majority with the advantages that holds and then there is the 'fear' created by over reacting to terrorism and demonising their own Muslims. These are the sort of things which research has found gets authoritarian people and those with latent authoritarian personalities willing to look for a strong leader such as Putin who they admire because they believe that he will be tough enough to protect them and they are willing to let go of societies norms including as with Putin even the killing of opposition. They see Trump as that strong leader who will look after them, That is basically the psychology behind those who go for the potentially fascist ruler. It has also been shown that they are more easily scared than those with a liberal personality - in that 'see you next tuesday' and RiaRaeb are correct.
I'll meet your Godwin and raise it. You seem to think that "1930's style ethnic nationalism" is the only type of nationalism there is.
There is also civic nationalism most usually seen by people supporting their sports teams and what not. I have yet to see anyone ever come on an internet forum, speak on television of in any other way cheer on another countries civic nationalism as you did. The reality is that those like yourself who are fighting for the end of the EU and 'Nationalism' in Europe are indeed fighting for ethnic nationalism so do not pretend it is otherwise and of course it is you who see the Hitler analogy in what you are advocating although I will grant you that hatred of Muslims generally go along with this desire and both the US election of Trump and the Brexit vote resulted in a massive upsearch on attacks on people seen as 'the other' and this same hatred is seen all over this forum by those who support Trump/Brexit or come fighting for 'Nationalism' in Europe. It may be PR to leave out the word 'ethnic' but anyone who does not know that that is what this is about is deceiving themselves. https://diem25.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/170209_DiEM25_END_Summary_EN.pdf Civic Nationalism does not result in authoritarian governments whose prime motivation for coming into being is to get rid of the other. It should be noted that a poll done for the Guardian some years ago discovered that a majority of England would vote for an authoritarian regime - if they believed it would not turn violent. Unfortunately for them authoritarian regimes generally do not turn violent till they are well established - and by that time it is too late. Varoufakis himself was quick to notice that the need in the current situation is to fight the system from within - anything else would be won by the European far right. That is saying that leaving the EU in itself is not in any way an intrinsically ethnic nationalist move but recognising the situation at the moment such a move would almost certainly be a gift to the far right. In Britain it is the far right of the Tories who are in charge with implementing Brexit and of course in the US Trumps strongest and most powerful supporters are the Christian Right and the alt right. The Front National of course who you are supporting in this thread has a more historical link to the far right than what is going on in the UK - Indeed Farage refused to be linked with Le Penn doubtless seeing that as giving the game away in the UK. http://www.timesofisrael.com/more-french-jews-drifting-toward-natl-front-party/ You are not supporting civic nationalism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civic_nationalism There certainly are reasons why people can want to leave the EU without being far right and I guess some people voted for Trump out of desperation but if you come on a forum shouting for the Nationalism of Le Penn, to suggest you are after civic or liberal nationalism is ridiculous.
Nationalism is good.. Lefties want everyone to hate themselves so they will more easily submit to their power.. It's gross.. Be proud of yourself.. Be proud of your country..
You won't be surprised to learn that I think you've gotten almost everything wrong. First of all, I didn't bring up the Hitler analogy, you did, unless you want try and tell me that your reference to "1930's style ethnic nationalism" was a reference to something else, like Serbian folk dancing. And given the frequency of the references on message boards and in the main stream media over the the past two years to the bad old days of 1930's style nationalism rearing it's ugly head... well I know what you meant. You were not even attempting to be subtle. Second, I've made my predictions about Le Pen winning the Presidency and the EU collapsing because I think it's likely. The more terrorist attacks in Europe, the more likely it is, and I do think that the frequency of terrorist acts in Europe is an arrow pointed up on a graph, not down. However you are correct that I identify myself as a civil nationalist. So in a post of incorrect suppositions, you did get one thing right. Congrats...?
1930'S was the last time there was ethnic nationalism in the EU. Yes it did coincide with massive anti-Semitism and Nazi Germany. As I have said not only in your post, the situation now is very like the 1930's. However this is reality nothing to do with any Godwin law - you were the person who throught you were being smart bringing that in. I gave you plenty of evidence to back up what I said. If you are unaware that people do not see a distinct possibility that the West or parts of the West are moving towards fascism then you must be asleep. I supplied you with plenty of information but you chose to ignore it. Here is your post you then denied that ethnic nationalism was what you were about and have ignored everything concerning that trying to wiggle your way out. You are not being honest in your post. I take back my thanks for that honesty. No person who is or was a supporter of civic or liberal nationalism would be supporting Marie Penn's form of Nationalism. I do not believe you. Your post says otherwise. While there is certainly argument whether any kind of Nationalism is surportable, you supporting Penn's Nationalism while claiming it is just because you like civic or you say civil nationalism suggests in itself that to you nationalism is just ethnic nationalism.
On the one hand... ...but on the other hand... So basically, you went all the way back from claiming you weren't making an Nazi reference to...making a Nazi reference! This is what happens when you don't catch the context of the post I was replying to. I didn't just make that statement out of the blue, egging on nationalism, it was in response to another poster linking "over the top nationalism" being responsible for the deaths of millions. A clear implication that a vote for Le Pen was a vote for the death of millions. Considering that you've gotten almost everything wrong in your replies to me, I can't say I'm concerned about whether you believe me or not. If I can't win your trust, I imagine that some day, in the fullness of time, I'll learn to live with the heartbreak!
I got nothing wrong. You simply like to twist. You do not support the far right and say bring on their nationalism unless that is what you want. It is obvious.
I never said anything of the sort and you know it. I pointed out that you were wanting to bring Europe back to the ethnic nationalism of the 1930's. Since then you have been wetting yourself trying to cover it up. You are the one who expressed your support for France moving to the far right. Your post You intentions for Europe are noted.
Next post of this type and you are reported. You clearly are terrified of being seen as what you are which is a supporter of the far right in Europe. In order to avoid that you are flaimbiating and writing things which simply are not true.
You equated me to a Nazi, and you think I should be worried about being reported? Dare I say those sound like Nazi tactics? Very reminiscent of the 1930's...
Le Pen is becoming France's Trump: https://www.yahoo.com/news/france-bracing-possible-le-pen-nightmare-032051034.html In France, bracing for possible Le Pen 'nightmare' Daphné BENOIT,AFP Fri, Apr 7 8:20 PM PDT Comments Sign in to like Reblog on Tumblr Share Tweet Email Paris (AFP) - What if Marine Le Pen wins in May? Two weeks before the French cast their first presidential ballots, the spectre of victory for the far-right leader who promises to crack down on immigration and outlaw gay marriage sends shivers down many a spine. Pollsters say the anti-EU firebrand can count on the unwavering support of about one in four voters to get her past the first round of voting on April 23. Although they also say the National Front (FN) leader cannot win in the decisive May 7 runoff whoever she faces, a great many pundits were wrong about Brexit and Donald Trump after failing to feel the populist pulse. And with one in three voters still undecided at this late stage, pollsters would be wise to hedge their bets. Predictions of a "nightmare" Le Pen presidency abound in bookstores and the media. The 48-year-old candidate poses a "genuine peril", according to Matthieu Croissandeau, editor-in-chief of the left-leaning newsweekly L'Obs, which ran a special report last month titled "Black Scenario of the First 100 Days". Dozens of actors, singers and other artists put their names to an op-ed in the Liberation daily last Sunday warning: "The National Front is on the threshold of power. We call for a bulwark against Marine Le Pen... in the name of freedom of thought and creativity." - Exile in Canada? - Reminiscent of the runup to Trump's election last year, many artists have said they would prefer exile to living under Le Pen. Like Americans virulently opposed to Trump, they say they are looking to Canada as a refuge. "Just in case, I'm making plans to move to Quebec," leftwing comedian Guy Bedos wrote in a book published in March. "I have an absolute aversion for the Le Pen family," the 82-year-old told AFP. In 2002, Le Pen's father Jean-Marie Le Pen, now sidelined from the FN because of views even farther to the right than his daughter's, caused a political earthquake in France by winning through to the runoff. But in that second round, voters of various political stripes reluctantly joined conservatives to elect Jacques Chirac and block the far right. Jean-Marie Gustave Le Clezio, the French-Mauritian author who won the Nobel prize for literature in 2008, said as far back as 2015 that he would hand in his French passport if Le Pen becomes president. Others, including public figures, are promising active resistance to a government led by the far right. France's ambassador to Japan, Thierry Dana, wrote in an op-ed last month that he would "shelve all diplomatic duties" if Le Pen is elected. The foreign ministry had to remind Dana of his obligation to remain neutral over the election.
In a way, it's rather to simply to understand. Same causes lead to same consequences. We have in France a huge problem of corruption. A lot of people feel betrayed by the political elite and want to try something different. I'm not into le Pen, but she is not either a nazi. Their is as many french who vote for Le Pen to "screw" the political elite as people who vote because they are deeply convinced.
All across the west the left pushed their luck too far.. They convinced voters that their vision was utopia and now the people have realized the real consequences of the leftist way. It has unexpectedly turned their countries into something unrecognizable because they did not understand the risks or the eventual outcome.. Now the people are wise to the ways of the left having experienced its consequences first hand and are anxious to undo the damage done.. Maybe a little bit of left is good but too much of has caused destruction and chaos.. You leftists have just pushes too far and the retribution is and will be ruining for the left for some time.. This is just the beginning, the damage of the left will not be undone anytime soon so the retribution will increase for some time into the future..
Yes, it would be true, if it would describe the situation. People in France are as much tired of the conventionnal right and left. During the big riots of 2005, who was ruling ? The right. Who was ruling during the jewish school shooting ? The right. Who suppressed 20 000 cops effectife, the right. Which candidate is under investigation for a dozen of corruption cases ? The right winged one. Which former president is under investigation for a half dozen of corruption cases ? The right winged one. Please stop to put your "the nice right vs the evil left" in every situation, it's doesn't match the reality.
Here's more: https://www.yahoo.com/news/le-pen-says-france-not-responsible-wwii-roundup-082416118.html Le Pen criticized for denying French blame in WWII roundup SYLVIE CORBET,Associated Press 14 hours ago Comments Sign in to like Reblog on Tumblr Share Tweet Email PARIS (AP) — France's far-right presidential contender has prompted a major outcry by denying that the French government was responsible for the roundup of Jews in World War II. Marine Le Pen, a leading candidate, said Sunday on RTL radio, "I don't think France is responsible for the Vel d'Hiv"— a reference to the Paris stadium where thousands of Jews were rounded up before being sent to Nazi death camps. Some 13,000 Jews were deported by French police on July 16-17, 1942, many of whom first were detained under harsh conditions at the indoor cycling stadium. In all, about 75,000 Jews were sent to Nazi concentration camps from France during World War II. Only 2,500 survived. Other French presidential candidates and Israel's Foreign Ministry were quick to condemn Le Pen's remark. "If one doubted whether Marine Le Pen is far-right, there is no doubt anymore," Socialist candidate Benoit Hamon told RTL radio. Le Pen's main rival in the race, independent centrist Emmanuel Macron, said at a news conference Monday that Le Pen made a "serious mistake." Macron is the front-runner in the two-round presidential election that will be held on April 23 and May 7. "On the one side, it's an historical and political mistake. And on the other side, it's the sign that Marine Le Pen is the daughter of Jean-Marie Le Pen," Macron said, referring to Le Pen's father, co-founder of the anti-Islam party she now leads. The elder Le Pen repeatedly has been convicted of crimes related to anti-Semitism and racism. Marine Le Pen pushed him out of the National Front party as part of an effort to appeal to more mainstream voters. "I hope the French will sanction this re-alignment of Marine Le Pen with her father," famed French Nazi hunter Serge Klarsfeld told the Associated Press. Le Pen later specified in a written statement that she "considers that France and the Republic were in London" during the war and that the Vichy regime that collaborated with the Nazis "wasn't France." She argued that had been the position of France's heads of state, including Charles De Gaulle, until former President Jacques Chirac "wrongly" acknowledged the state's role in Jewish persecution during World War II. "It does not discharge the effective and personal responsibility of the French who took part into the monstrous roundup of the Vel d'Hiv," she wrote. After decades of denial in France, Chirac in 1995 became the first president to publicly acknowledge the country's role in the deportations of Jews, issuing a long-awaited public apology at the start of his first term in office. Israel's Foreign Ministry was not persuaded by her elaboration. "This declaration is contrary to historical truth, as expressed in the statements of successive French presidents who recognized France's responsibility for the fate of the French Jews who perished in the Holocaust," the ministry said in a statement. Small independent presidential candidate Jean Lassalle, a lawmaker with centrist views, denounced Le Pen's "disgraceful" remarks. "It makes me throw up," Lassalle said on Franceinfo radio. The two top vote-getters in the French presidential vote on April 23 will go into a presidential runoff on May 7. Polls suggest Marine Le Pen will advance to the second round of the election.
Sincerely, as a french, I'm bored by those semantic debate. Neither her or her opponent are wrong or right. It highly depend of what you consider to the "France". Everybody agree to say that some french officials participated actively to that. The difference is if you consider they were the France (yes because they are french) or you don't (no because they weren't elected).
Le Pen for the win! I want when I go to France to see French people, not blacks, Arabs and Chinese. The same goes for Germany, England, etc. Enough of this globalisation trickery already.
You realize that Marine Le Pen have nothing against coloured people ? She is against what she estimate the islamisation of french society. And even before they were blacks, arabs and chinese people, they were polish, italian, spanish, russian, or german migrants. A lot of french have italian origins. Among the black french people, a lot of them come from the french Guyane, Guadeloupe and Martinique who are historically french territories. Asian people are pretty appreciated among the far right because they are considered as migrants who don't create troubles. The problem is that the country always succeed to integrate those people, and for muslims peoples, things are way more tougher.
