But LRRP were also conducted by regular Army and Marine grunt units. And many Lurps did deliberately seek out and engage the enemy. I believe the LRRP were so successful during the Vietnam War with something like a 400 to 1 kill ration. A lot of those kills were from calling in interdiction air strikes, arty and NGF but still that's pretty good. I know that Marine Force Recon were under division while combat recon units like the 1st Recon battalion usually were under a field grade TAOR command. Not sure how the Army's organization was like.
A lot of that was simply because of the fortunes of war. When the Navy did it's infamous "Strategic Withdrawl" from Guadalcanal, several of their critical missions had yet to be accomplished. The Artillery, Engineering Equipment, and reinforcements, food and ammunition had not been completely offloaded onto the islands, and the Marine Raiders had not yet been picked up from the beaches so they could be rotated back for refit and retraining prior to being used again. This left them stuck on Guadalcanal, so they (along with the ParaMarines) were simply thrown into the line to operate as conventional Infantry, so that the Marines around Henderson Field could hopefully hold out long enough for the Navy to come back. By the time that battle was done, the 1st Raider Battalion was little more then a reinforced Company, and the ships intended to ferry the 2nd Raider Battalion to it's destinations were pressed instead into covert supply runs to Guadalcanal to try and keep them supplied in the basics (food, avgas, munitions, etc) until the Navy could come back and resecure the area. Guadalcanal ultimately is what destroyed the Raiders (and ParaMarines) more then anything else. By the time the campaign was over, the Raiders had been forced into more conventional uses, due to either a lack of transport and logistics, lack of easy to strike targets that were not intended for later invasions, or simply the losses in other units mandated replacements from anywhere they could be gained. Known as "Chief Falling Cloud" in Parachute School, Ira Hayes landed with the 3rd Marine Parachute Battalion in Bougainville as a BAR gunner. Shipped back to the Fleet when the unit was disbanded, he was thrown into the new 5th Marine Division and that is why he was on Iwo Jima with the 28th Marines. With the extreme demands of trying to expand from 1 to 6 Divisions, it can be argued that the Corps simply did not have the needed manpower to justify the demands of such elite units. And notice, I am not taking a position either for or against this decision, I am simply stating the most prevailing historical records and actions.
LRRP is more of a mission then a unit. And quite often they engage in "Active Patrols", where they seek out and engage any suitable units that can be successfully ambushed. They will often set up traps and mines if they find units to strong to take but it is possible to do some kind of damage. Force Recon on the other hand as AR said avoids combat at all times unless that is their specific mission. They do not go looking for trouble, but are either watching enemy units so they can guide in other units to take the offensive, or scouting approaches that other larger units will use in an offensive action. Closer to the role of Pathfinders then LRRP.
In regards to the Army most of the LRRP units, or elements doing this sort of mission, disbanded after the Vietnam war. During Operations Urgent Fury and Desert Storm, a Cavalry regiment from the 82nd Abn deployed a long range surveillance type unit. These teams were doing passive intelligence deep into Iraqi territory. They primarily reported on Iraqi troop movements, weather conditions on the ground and any other information deemed as important. I think the 101st had something similar as did a LRS unit attached to a Military Intelligence company out of the 24th infantry division. They were not equipped with any sort of offensive capabilities . These guys were regarded as bad ass...not in the sense of being killers, they didn't leave a trail of bodies in their wake...they put themselves within yards of the enemy often times to observe and report. The intelligence they provided was invaluable, and often deep within Iraqi territory.
I remember my own experiences in Jungle School at Fort Sherman in Panama. Some of our training was literally in LRRP, 1 week excursions into the jungle in Company and Platoon sized elements. Taking all food and water with us and avoiding all enemy contact.We also did smaller Squad type excursions for 2-3 days. But ultimately what you do while on the mission is dictated by the ROE and mission goals. It may be pure information gathering, where all contact is avoided. It may be incursion interdiction, where attacks and ambushes are to be done if conditions are favorable. It really just depends on the goal of the mission. There is absolutely no 'standard" for how any kind of patrol is to be conducted.
It has been comonplace since 1991 when we really need to get something done and the Politician's want to keep their hands clean....CONTRACTORS are brought in. After Blackwater....SPECIAL TEAMS were used much more in this role. Special Teams are not like Special Forces nor are they CIA Teams or Delta. They are there for one purpose....COMMUNICATION.....and MEET AND GREETS. No matter what any Administration might say....WE TALK TO EVERYONE....either by Proxy or directly. Lack of Communication is what starts wars. AboveAlpha
First of all I stopped playing Video Games after Asteroids came out. Secondly if you think they are going to send some Marines....into an area that has harsh Political Ramifications no matter how well trained those Marines are you are fooling yourself. In Afghanistan there were 196 of us on the ground in the first week and our job was to Lase Targets, Call in Air Strikes.....and detail Targets of Oppertunity. We killed TEN'S OF THOUSANDS OF THE ENEMY in the first week alone. There was about 360 of us in country after a MONTH and WE DID NOT NEED LARGE NUMBERS OF MARINES OR GROUND FORCES!!! Our issues started when the F@#%!NG STATE DEPT. decided to SHARE INFORMATION WITH PAKISTAN!!! Thus Bin Laden escaped from TORAH BORAH. Then some A$$#@!E in DC decides we are going to go NATION BUILDING!!! IN A F@#%!NG PLACE THAT IS STILL IN THE STONE AGE!!! And because the U.S. Congress would not approve a LOUSY $1 MILLION to help build Schools and buy TEXT BOOKS and HIRE TEACHERS.....the Afghan Children who were now FIGHTING AGAINST US now that they were older....NEVER KNEW IT WAS CHARLIE WILSON AND THE CIA AND U.S. THAT SUPPLIED OF ALL PEOPLE BIN LADEN with STINGER SHOULDER FIRED MISSILES that were key in driving the Soviets OUT OF AFGHANISTAN!!! A LOUSY $1 MILLION AND 9/11 PROBABLY WOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED!!! I and another developed a strategy by which we would go into Waziristan in late fall as the Taliban and what was left of Al Qaeda.....because within a MONTH we hade killed over 48,000 members of the Taliban and Al Qaeda as they NEVER KNEW WHAT HIT THEM as B-52's and B-1B's would fly in CIRCLES up abover 48,000 Feet and the Taliban and Al Qaeda would hide either day or night at the edges of these Flat Plains that were 7,000 to 9,000 Feet high like giant flat areas on mountain tops....and they thought that they would be waiting for a MAIN U.S. TROOP INVASION TO COME ATTACK THEM....as they set up along the rocks and bouders of these vast flat plains. We would watch them sleep during the day as they would become very active at night as they felt the DARKNESS WAS THEIR ALLY...it was not....it is ours. They would drive to RALLY POINTS in what we call TECHNICALS.....Small Trucks that they had mounted .50 Cals. in the Beds......and then we would call in the Grid Points or GPS given to us by a Drone or Lase the Targets and they never knew what hit them. The WAR at that point was an OVERWHEALMING SUCCESS......UNTIL....those IDIOTS IN DC.....thought that throwing more SOLDIERS WAS THE ANSWER!!! IT WAS NOT....NATION BUILDING WAS NEVER PART OF THE ORIGINAL PLAN!!! What happened? This very smart Female CIA Operative who almost got killed a few times found out where Bin Laden was at in Pakistan and she would COUNT EVERY DAY THE CIA DID NOTHING WITH A GREASE PEN ON A WINDOW!!! When the number of days got up past 100....past 150...etc.....Leon Panetta fnally agreed to see her. I believe there is a MOVIE about this woman and what happened....can't remember the name. My POINT IS.....Marines are not designed for these purposes.....WE ARE!!! You want to INVADE A NATION.....first you use PSY-OP'S.....SPACE COMMAND.....CYBER COMMAND AND THEIR CIVILIAN EQUIVALENT.....THE USAF TO ACHIEVE JAMMING OF ALL ENEMY COMMUNICATION....along with USAF and NAVY AWACS.....WILD WEASLES F-16'S AT ONE TIME F-4's....and this is the Celebration of the 50th Aniversary of the WILD WEASLES...... Shaw AFB, SC (WLTX)- During the Vietnam war a tactic was created that is still being used today. The Air Force created a squadron dubbed the Wild Weasels. The Weasels responsibility was to take to the air to draw enemy fire that would help the allies pin point the enemy's location. "It makes me so proud that I'm speechless, these guys are doing a wonderful job... I was just the first. What these guys are doing now, we pale in comparison" Allen Lamb was one of the first fighter pilots to be a part of the Wild Weasel mission back in 1965 when it started. LINK....http://www.wltx.com/story/news/2015...on-of-wild-weasels-celebrate-50-yrs/28581629/ Anyways.....now day's you would have a special Satellite Launch ahead of the War to place a Recon. Satellite in Geosyncronous Orbit. Then AFTER AIR SUPREMACY WAS ACHIEVED..... AFTER PSY-OP'S HAD IT'S DESIRED EFFECT....... AFTER WILD WEASLES DESTROYED ALL THE RADARS WITH HARM MISSILES.... AFTER THE E-6 PROWLERS OR GROWLERS PLAYED ELECTRONIC HAVOC WITH THE ENEMIES SYSTEMS. AFTER U.S. CYPER COMMAND SHUT DOWN EVERYTHING.... AFTER SPECIAL OP'S.....CIA TEAMS AND SPECIAL TEAMS were in place..... AFTER B-2's and F-22's and F-35's have taken out with their Steath Capabilities all COMMAND AND COTROL AND HIGH VALUE TARGETS..... AFTER....B-1B's and B-52's had taken out Airfields and Aircraft Bukers, Entire Mechanized Divisions...etc... After F-15E's had taken out all Sentry Bases.... AFTER.....A-10's...if they are still around....Apache Longbow Choppers, F-16's, Drones, F-18 Superhornets, F-15's...etc.....took out the vast MAJORITY of TANKS, TROOP CARRIERS AND SELF PROPELLED HOWITZERS.... AFTER all of this was don then.......MAYBE.....you might see a Marine Amphibious Landing.....or they could just do what they did off the Coast of Kuwait...tie up Divisions of Saddam's Army...as the Marines never landed. Marines in M1A3's and Marines on the Ground.....NOT NEEDED UNTIL MOST OF THE ENEMY IS ALREADY DEAD!!! Things have changed. I NEVER want to see a SOMALIA again!!! I believe we either RESPOND WITH MASSIVE FORCE...but we do not NATION BUILD and we DO NOT GO THERE TO HELP!! WE GO THERE TO KILL THOSE WHO WOULD OR HAVE KILLED US!! AboveAlpha
It's "Tora Bora." Torah is a Hebrew word. In the local Pashto language it is translated as Black Dust
Then you want a Commander in Chief who listens to his military advisers. The Army commanders in Somalia requested armor and President Clinton said no. The rest is history. What happened in Somalia and having a CnC who had the talk but not the walk would set the ground work for the 9-11-01 Al Qaueda attacks on American soil. When Osama bin Laden declared war on America in August of 1996 he looked at President Clinton as a pantywaist and saw America as a paper tiger. He watched how Clinton was dealing with Saddam Hussein and saw a pantywaist. Bin Laden appointed Khalid Sheikh Mohammed to device and carry out an attack on American soil believing that America's only response would be Tomahawk cruise missiles. Unknown to Bin Laden, G.W. Bush was no pantywaist. OBL declaration of war: Excerpt:
You are correct...my mistake....but I was not wrong about the reason Bin Laden escaped from there. The Administration had it in their minds they could trust the Pakistani....we cannot. AboveAlpha - - - Updated - - - If you have any objections or you can post something I posted as being incorrect go ahead. Other than that.....don't think you know a damn thing about me. AboveAlpha
I have spent time in Africa....seen things I can never forget....but in Somalia we decided to prevent the Starvation Deaths of perhaps a Million People. We air dropped Grain....the Warloards would locate the drop zones...confiscate the grain....and sell it to the people for rediculous prices. The SOCOM PLANS were HINDERED. That is all I can discuss about that. In that case you have Chid Soldiers working Recon. You have people using the Mercy of our Actions against us. Only one way that should have been set up. SPECIAL TEAMS.....no affiliation with anyone....as far as anyone knows. Night extractions of Warlord Family Members. Barrett M82 .50 Cal Sniper Robotics on Quadrapod with the 99 Magazines that need a special mechanical support and turning device......place 16 of them all Networked on all sides except the ocean side.....Ocean Side 4 Human Snipers with Tripods with spotters. Within 7 days all Warloads and their 2nds and 3rds would be dead. THEN.....set up a MAIN FOOD DISTRIBUTION BASE.....with a MAZE LIKE ENTRANCE completely guarded to prevent people rushing Aid Distribution. The Humvee Armor is a travesty. The FIRST RULE in defeating an enemy that is ruthless beyond Human Understanding is TO KILL THAT ENEMIES LEADERSHIP.....a feat we did not accomplish due to Political Concerns. Marines are not used for this JOB.....Special Forces are not used for this JOB.....CIA Teams are not trained to work in this manner. This was a JOB for SPECIAL TEAMS...and we were not allowed in. AboveAlpha
Bin Laden was able to escape because a proper blocking force wasn't established. Infantry 101. For some years I was wondering what the (*)(*)(*)(*) are they doing over there ? But I would find out there was a blocking force, special operations units. You use real grunts to establish a blocking force not Navy SEAL's or Army Special Forces. I know there were other problems, the 10th Mountain Division ended up not being to mountain like. Only the Army's CH-47 Chinooks were able to operate in those high altitude mountains. Rumsfeld wanted a small boot print in Afghanistan. All it would have took was two regiments of grunts. One Marine and one Army. The 5th or 7th Marines on one end on OBL six. The Army's 75th Ranger Regiment as a blocking force.
This is because we allowed supposed ALLIES to part of the Blocking Force. The Administration told the Pakistani's....the Extremist Elements in the Pakistani Military let Bin Laden know EXACTLY WHERE TO GO AND WHO TO BRIBE!! That's how he got out. AboveAlpha
Like I said, there wasn't a proper blocking force established and Pakis aren't the proper blocking force. I chose the 5th or 7th Marines and the 75'th Ranger Regiment because I believe they would have accomplished the mission. To bad the 10th Mountain Division is no longer a real mountain division. Don't know why so many thought that OBL was so important, he wasn't the master mind of 9-11 it was Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and he was captured in March of 2003. He's the one all of the liberals got their panties all wadded up over because he was waterboarded at Gitmo. But even former CIA Director Leon Panetta said the information gathered from the enhanced interrogations of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is what led to finding OBL. I remember the night Obama announced to America that he killed OBL and and all of the celebration by the not so informed, they thought Obama was telling the truth, that Al Qaeda was being decimated and was on the run and the war against Al Qaeda was over with the death of OBL. It was just another Obama lie.
Leon...Leon...Leon......let HUNDREDS OF DAYS GO BY as that Female CIA Operative screamed we knew where OBL was!!! Besides....he was just a FIGUREHEAD!! This never should have been ANNOUNCED AS A WAR ON TERROR.....that's got's Dicky C's name all over it!! We should have kept on doing what we did in the first month of Afghanistan.....killed about 48,000 members of the Taliban and Al Qaeda....and they never knew what hit them.....they had no one to shoot at. Iraq we should NEVER have invaded. Brutal as Saddam was Bush Sr. KNEW he was the only thing preventing a Sunni/Shia Civil War. Iraq was all about allowing the Press to see up close and personal what the U.S. Military was capable of doing to top of the line Soviet and now Russian Military Equipment. The T-72 is still the front line Tank in numbers the Russian's have as the Russian's declare they have 2000 Improved T-72's ready for battle. Actual number is about 1500 and of this 1500....400 T-72's are upgraded with reactive armor. T-80's are junk....T-90's are a good tank but exist in only HANDFULS as they are too expensive for Russia to build in numbers. By contrast the total number of M1A2 and M1A3 U.S. Abrams Tanks is a Classified Number but Jane's the worlds most trusted and premere Military Weapons System Information source has 4100 U.S. M1A2 and 2000 U.S. Abrams M1A3 Tanks PREPOSITIONED IN THE MIDDLE EAST. This does not include NATO....and the vast number of M1A2 and M1A3 Abrams Tanks still in the U.S. is HIGHLY CLASSIFIED. There is also a very large number of older U.S. Abrams M1A1's in the U.S.....all Battle Ready. But Tanks mean very little for an Invasion because the USAF, USN. Aviators, A-10's...hope like HELL we never retire them....Army Apache Longbow Choppers...basically a Flying Tank.......and the advent of the NEXT THING. DRONES......THOUSANDS of DRONES....some Gen. 6......some Gen 7. A single Gen 7 Fighter/Attack Drone is capable of shooting down F-22 Raptors like an F-22 Raptor can down the best Russian and Chinese Fighter/Attack Aircraft they have. It's all going ROBOTIC. AboveAlpha
Plus Somalia was a rather typical UN operation. Through foreign forces into the middle of a Civil War, and expect people to stop fighting each other just because some people with blue helmets on their heads wants them to stop. Officially the US was Neutral in that operation, simply trying to protect UN food and supply convoys and delivery sites. But unofficially it was trying to eliminate the leadership of several of the factions involved in the fighting, hoping that if they were leaderless it would make rebuilding the country easier. And as a general rule, you do not go around placing tanks into a "peacekeeping mission". Plus do not forget, the official presence was US Marines. Rangers were there in place to provide the security of the Airbase so the marines could do their peacekeeping mission. Delta was not there at all, just some random secret soldiers on a holiday. Putting tanks in Somalia would not only have required the approval of the UN, it also would have had instant International Political Fallout, as to why we were putting tanks in a Peacekeeping mission. Just because I do not care for politics, does not mean I am ignorant to the effect one can have on the other.
re: Somalia In August 1993, two months before the ill fated Battle of Mogadishu, General Montgomery, who was the deputy commander with the UN, requested six Bradely Fighting Vehicles and six M1A1 Tanks to punch through any rebel resistance that were using .50 caliber machine guns mounted on technicals. General Montgomery was concerned about being able to reach a U.S. helicopter that might be downed. During the actual battle, a request was put in for AC-130 gunships; these were based about two hours away by air. All of this denied by then SECDEF Aspin. The excuse given was that the DoD did not want the situation to devolve into another Vietnam. Paraphrasing..."Today a tank, next week a corps" By the end of the two day battle, 18 U.S. soldiers were killed along with hundreds of Somalis.
Kinda the way I remember it. Wouldn't think about it until eight years later right after the Al Qaeda attack on 9-11-01 and after reading OBL 1996 declaration of war against the USA with his first fatwa, if we had that armor in Somalia, things might have turned out different and it's likely Al Qaeda would have never attacked America on it's own soil eight years later. Unless other events would have happened to convince OBL that Clinton was a pantywaist and America was a "paper tiger." http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/military-july-dec96-fatwa_1996/
You are so incompetent. There are around 9 thousand T-72 of various modifications, of wich 1500 T-72B3, to which you refer as modernised. Every single one of them is equipped with Kontakt-5 ERA, and even "unmodernised" ones are equipped with either Kontakt-1 or Kontakt-5. Some people say, that only incompeent clowns can make this kind of statement. Not that I am saying I am one of them... When you return from your Wetdreamsland, try to check the very existance of this tank.
OH FOR CRIPES SAKES!!!! The RUSSIAN'S THEMSELVES STATE THEY HAVE 2000 OPERATIONAL T-72'S!!! Jane's.....and I trust Jane's a HELL of a lot more than I trust what the Kremlin is saying...say's there are only 1500 T-72 Opperational and of those 1500.....there are 400 upgraded. Sure...Russia built thousands of T-72's but Russia DOES NOT HAVE 9,000 OPERATIONAL AND UPGRADED T-72's. And even if Russia did have 9,000 of them....we would just destroy them as easily as we could destroy 1500!!! The T-72....even with Explosive Reactive Armor is an outdated, outmoded Tank. The T-90 is a great Russian Tank but they are too costly to make more than a handful of them. The T-80 has all sorts of problems and Russia no longer makes them....nor do they even make parts for them as the T-80's have been taken out of service with the exception of 3 T-80's that were UPGRADED but the upgrades are so drastic and expensive it is not worth it. Even if some T-72's survived a FANTASY SCENARIO....as this would never happen.....Russian/American War....as the U.S. would destroy just about every Tank, Self Propelled Canon, BMP...etc...Russia has with a combination of USAF Aircraft, USN. Aircraft, DRONES...upon DRONES upon DRONES.....A-10's which I HOPE TO GOD ARE NOT RETIRED...as the SWEETEST SONG A MAN ON THE BATTLEFIELD WITH ENEMY TANKS AND MECHANIZED TROOP CARRIERS CLOSING IN ON THEM CAN HEAR IS....BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRPP!!! Because after you here that....and I can tell you from PERSONAL EXPERIENCE.....YOU KNOW......anything and anyone who was trying to kill you IS NOW DEAD!!!! And U.S. Army Apache Longbow Choppers......which are really just FLYING TANKS.....anyways...... There is NO RUSSIAN ALIVE who want's to be in a T-72 before than kind of attack.....and NO RUSSIAN ALIVE who want's to be in a T-72 even upgraded with Reactive Armor.....who want's to take on a U.S. Abrams M1A1 or.. M1A2 TANK!!.......there is an M1A2SEP....(Systems Enhancement Program).....which for awhile was called an..... M1A3....but NOOOoooOO! That would just be too simple....so it's called an M1A2SEP. In Iraq our M1A2's with Bradly's would charge toward entire Mechanized Divisions of T-72's and BMP's at top speed and fire on the run. The T-72's could not lower their gun's fast enough to keep up with the advance of the U.S. Abram's Tanks as the Main Cannon and Turret of an Abrams Tank is computer controlled and remains on target no matter what it is driving over. The T-72's and BMP's were obliterated by the M1A1's and M1A2's and Bradleys. As far as the T-80 and T-90 against an Abrams...forget it. Even the new Russian "SOBOT ROUND"....cannot penetrate the Abram's Armor. Since even "Silver Bullet" rounds from other Abrams which killed T-72s are 3km+ range (went straight trough, in some cases its kinetic energy alone was enough to knock out the turret and penetrated even when the targets were covered behind thick berms) were unable to pentrate the turret front and side of an Abrams and a T-72 (and even a T-90 and T-80U) has less armor penetration what makes you think an Iraqi T-72 could? In reports of Abrams hit by 125mm rounds the rounds simply ricoshet off without doing damage. There is only 1 way in which a T-72 could take out an Abrams, from the rear into the engine (which would immobilize it) or in the rear turret (which would probably set of the ammo and activate the blow-out panels). Fact is NO U.S. ABRAMS TANK HAS EVER BEEN DESTROYED BY ANOTHER ENEMY TANK. The only case I know of that an Abrams Crew lost 2 men is when an Abram's drove over a 500 lbs Bomb that was detonated by Insurgents.....which no tank could survive. The Russian T-90....is a Good Tank....but no match for an Abrams. The T-90's main armament is the 2A46M 125 mm smoothbore tank gun which using any existing Russian Anti-Tank Round against a U.S. M1A1 or M1A2 or M1A2SEP.....would simply ricoshet off the Abram's without doing damage. Even an ABRAM'S cannot penetrate the Armor of another ABRAM'S! I don't care how many T-72's were out there.....they would just end up being destroyed by one U.S. Military Weapons System or another. AboveAlpha
No, they claim they have around 2,000 (actually 2,255) T-72 tanks in active service. And another 8,000+ assigned to reserve units and in readyness storage (in other words operational and ready for quick activation). And T-72 tanks are being pulled out of long term storage and updated to modern equipment on a 1 for 1 basis as T-80 tanks are deactivated. You really do not do any kind of research, do you? https://web.archive.org/web/2013102...e.be/db/catid/244/linkid/1775/title/t-72-mbt/ Do not confuse "in active service" with "available" or "in storage". That is a big time fail, big time.
