You get some points here. But, I don't really see anything on Earth that compares the the extraordinaryness of a God who created the universe and plans to hand out everlasting life in paradise to some percent of the population. I mean, let's say you see X as extraordinary. Well, god created that. Surely that makes God more extraordinary as He dreamed it up and made it!! Science doesn't have anything at all to say about any god or anything else that is supernatural. If science DID claim something about God or his existence, I would strongly oppose that, as science has no way of addressing the issue. I don't agree that ET's, the paranormal, ESP, etc. are the best explanation, as tests have failed to support their existence. I'd point out that the Ocam's Razor is only used as a possible identification of where to look. It isn't evidence. It isn't testing. OK, you and I are going to have to agree to disagree on this "ET's are here" part. My view is that the paradox is just one of those questions for which we have very little evidence. For one thing, if we and all modern equipment were magically transported to some other planet in this galaxy, the chance that we could then detect that Earth has life would be essentially zero. First of all, the Milky way is 100,000 light years across, and we've only been radiating electromagnetic radiation for 100 years or so. And, skipping on to the next nearest galaxy would surely wipe out all trace of our existence. This is one reason I doubt the ET thing. One would have to guess our physics is nonsense in some pretty fundamental ways in order for some other beings to detect us, let alone come here. OK. I can't really comment on that. I think you have some interesting ideas. However, I'm left trying to extrapolate what a religion might think while I sit here in my atheism! Well, our knowledge of space flight (physics, etc.) says ET visits are essentially impossible. Human caused electromagnetic radiation from Earth has been incredibly weak and hasn't existed for long enough to cover any appreciable amount of this galaxy. Then, there is the problem of space travel and light speed for a visitation. Another view is that God created the big bang in such a way that Earth came about and proceeded as per evidence that we find.
For someone who has never read a book on Philosophy - you seem to know a fair bit about it - and do much "Philosophizing". "All is One" - This is the conclusion I have arrived at - not defacto but - it does seem to fit in with observable reality. So what do we know ? Humans are made of stuff - which we have labeled matter and energy. At the subatomic level these two are interchangeable. At some point this "stuff" became organized in such a way - as to become aware of its own existence. We know this because we exist - "I think therefor I am" or better yet the Monty Python version "I drink therefore I am". Why or how this happened - we know not - but, we do know that it happened. 1) There is a finite probability that matter/energy - will organize itself in such a way as to become aware of itself. This is also true of you - there was a finite probability of your existence. 2) Assumption - "Time is infinite" - if this assumption is true - then all finite probabilities will happen - not just once - but an infinite number of times. Conclusion - existence is eternal. Thought Experiment - Think of a situation where some configuration of "stuff" has attained awareness. It may be awareness on a very low level - say that of a plant. How is it that this awareness was able to manifest itself into physical reality ? Look down at your hand - now wiggle your fingers - now tell me how you did that ? A thought was manifested into physical reality. How did this happen initially ? How was a thought able to generate a chain reaction of electrical impulses that resulted in your fingers moving - and how did this happen the first time it happened ? There is no good solution to this problem - it the mystery of mysteries - even more so than "existence is eternal". You will your legs to run - and they run. Note that the will - can only manifest itself within your physical body - you can't will your couch to move. You can manifest the will internally but not externally. If you could this would be akin to having some God like powers. My definition of a God would be an entity that can control matter and energy - through force of will. When we look at nature - we see that a tree has a low level of control (internally) where as a human has more control. A rock - not so much. Perhaps at some point humans will evolve the ability to manifest the will externally - but I digress. If the stuff of the universe managed to become aware of itself in the form of humans - it stands to reason that there are other configurations that attain the same. Notice as well that the stuff we are made of is mostly empty space - somewhat like the universe. If the universe is aware of its existence - then - it would not have to manifest its will externally - only internally. The things going on in the universe could then be an act of self manipulation. I would not go as far as to say this is defacto the case - but , it does seem to fit the pattern.
Many interesting thoughts you cover. One place I differ is with the claim that Science has nothing to say about God. My answer to this is that it depends on how one defines God. If you were to show up 7000 years ago - to some town of people - arriving in a helicopter - brandishing your iphone and a bic lighter - those people would think you were a God - yet all your Godly powers can be explained by science.
H2O was just one example. It was to illustrate that no amount of scientific analysis of H and O individually would confer enough information to predict that a bond between the two elements would produce water, let alone that it can exist in three different states (solid, liquid, gas), nor all the other odd properties of water that we still don't fully understand to this day. Of course they know 2H + O results in water because they began with H2O and split it into its H and O constituents. They did not predict H2O by first analyzing H and O. The problem with the reductionist method is that the individual parts do not reveal or predict the nature of their SUM. Look at the human body. Reduce it down to its elemental components (atoms/subatomic 'particles'). Look at the elements. They are the same as those on earth. How can we predict, by merely analyzing the elements individually, that they could form the trillions of types of molecules, cells, and tissues that exist to form a human body. Take the very same elements and you can form the universe...or a planet...or a fish...or a bird...or a whatever. A single tree does not reveal to us what a forest is capable of generating. Any-thing that can be observed or detected as a 'part' can be infinitely reduced. I don't know the current science, but last time I checked, physicists were still hunting for THE irreducible/fundamental 'part' (ie, particle/wave/etc.) that forms the universe and ALL that exists. They're searching ultimately for what they call the 'TOE' (Theory Of Everything). But they won't find it with reductionist methodologies because there is NO irreducible 'part'. There is only Oneness...so ALL 'parts' are an illusion...ie, manifestations of Oneness. And the illusory 'building blocks' to ALL that exists is Consciousness/Awareness. But you won't find it by teasing apart the brain. Another issue with the reductionist methodology is: that which is observed can only be observed next to its absence. So, X exists only by virtue of non-X...non-X exists only by virtue of X. Either both exist, or neither can exist. What this means is that any 'part' I observe has no absolute meaning by itself. For example, the mathematical term for Energy (E) has no relevance or meaning in the absence of other functions (such as M and C). So, in the equation E=MC2, E is a function of M and C, M is a function of E and C, and C is a function of E and M. Because of this nagging issue in science, not a single 'part' can be analyzed into an absolute irreducible form. It is, however, the byproduct of the illusion of separation. The observed requires an observer. The observer requires the observed. First, let me correct a typo I just noticed. I said: "I was only discussing suffering as a cause of material attachments." I meant to say: "I was only discussing material attachments as a cause of suffering." Anyway, I don't understand what you're trying to say. Please expound on what you mean by 'vector' and 'transformed' in this context. Are you speaking of Creator as the infinite Source of ALL that exists...or Creator as the genetic engineers/progenitors of the human species? If the latter, then the Bible appears to make reference to this. So when the Bible portrays God as being 'wrathful', 'jealous' and vengeful...well, it would logically follow that it is referring to an ET race (particularly because of our current ufological research/evidence coupled with our knowledge of air/spacecraft). Christian minister, Dr. Barry H. Downing, has even written books detailing this. He wrote, The Bible And Flying Saucers: Did a UFO Part the Red Sea?, and Biblical UFO Revelations: Did Extraterrestrial Powers Cause Ancient Miracles? The author, despite his clerical position, was open-minded enough to acknowledge the many references in the Bible to UFO's and ET's. There are also numerous ancient texts, many predating the Bible's arrival, that also make reference to ET's (including their advanced weapons and flight technologies in unambiguous detail). 'Harvested' by whom...and why? And explain what you mean by 'ripe'.
A few points you're not considering: (1) The technology is unknown. We can't assume a civilization that's able to reach earth is using the same tech we are. If the govt. would end their 70-year UFO/alien coverup campaign, we'd know the truth (including the truth about human origins). (2) We can't assume ALL aliens visiting earth are coming from the current timeline. Some may originate from our 'future' or from alternate dimensions. (3) If aliens have been here (some maybe even evolving here) long before humans came on the scene, then how they got here from so far away becomes irrelevant. In fact, there are ancient manuscripts, myths, and tribal folklore suggesting humans were genetically engineered by visiting ET's (eg, mixing ET DNA with the then evolving earth apes). If All is One, then there can't be a 'big bang' in the sense of going from no-thing to some-thing. There was some-thing that emerged from some-thing else. What is this some-thing? Well, if All is One, then Oneness is a closed system. So all things emerge from Oneness, and must return to Oneness. Can you think of what exhibits this behavior? Well...it would be a vortex pattern or torus. Think of a vortex pattern formed in glass of water using a spoon. The water moves in an ascending and then descending circular pattern, entering at the top and exiting at the bottom of the vortex...yet it is all the same water. You will also notice how the 'frequency' (rotational rate) of the water increases the closer it gets to the center, and decreases the further it moves away from the center. We can view the entire universe as such a pattern...and so-called 'black holes' as minor vortices that function to 'recycle' the universe. What enters in one form comes out transformed. In this way, Oneness can experience infinite aspects of it-self, despite being a closed system...and, without the need to introduce time (ie, there is beginning/end to the vortex). It is for this reason we find vortex (cycle) patterns throughout nature & the universe: eg, magnetic fields, eddy patterns in blood, eddy currents in water, hurricanes, tornadoes, wind patterns, solar flares, Jupiter's gases, solar systems, galaxies, etc. Other cycles include day/night, the seasons, wakefulness/sleep, menstruation cycles, moon cycles, astrological cycles, Hindu Yugas (cycles) of time, Mayan calendrical Counts (cycles) of time, etc. Even history seems to repeat itself in many ways. And also reincarnation is representative of this cycle pattern (ie, each new life is a transformation of the previous life). As above...so below. You will also notice in the vortex in a glass of water that the top portion appears to be contracting as it begins to enter & nears the central region...and appears to be expanding at the bottom portion as it exits & moves away from the central region. This may be why scientists are seeing an 'expanding' universe. We may be in the 'expanding' (bottom portion) of this grand, infinite universal vortex. Also look at Google images for 'flow forms in water'. That's interesting stuff. I also looked up the "Hindu cycles" on Wikipedia and found this: "According to Hindu cosmology, there is no absolute start to time, as it is considered infinite and cyclic. Similarly, the space and universe has neither start nor end, rather it is cyclical. The current universe is just the start of a present cycle preceded by an infinite number of universes and to be followed by another infinite number of universes." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_cycle_of_the_universe
It's not just technology we lack. Technology comes after physics. Your 1, 2 and 3 are science fiction - with 3 perhaps being religion. Not even theroetical physics gives it any likelihood. Vortexes can be detected even if you are in the vortex. I've never heard any physicist suggest that space itself is expanding because we're in a cosmic vortex.
Physicists do not claim this universe came from nothing. There is zero evidence of that. Once you postulate that there was something before this universe, you open up all sorts of ideas that can not be tested and thus outside of scientific method. My own guess is that there was something before, but it could have been nearly anything - with theoretical physicists coming up with various interestng ideas. I find the ideas that theoretical physicists come up with to be interesting reading, as it's better than science fiction (yet still untestable). The real answer from science (scientific method) is "I don't know, but we're not going to stop looking."
The phenomenon of emergent properties does not thwart the confidence of stalwart reductionists. They succeeded in unifying the electric and magnetic forces into one, i.e. electromagnetic, and then they consolidated that with the weak nuclear force IIRC. Newton's laws worked at the macroscale but not the microscale where quantum mechanics had to be discovered. They are hoping to someday unify the strong nuclear force and gravity. The ultimate goal is a GUT (Grand Unified Theory). That's the way proper progress works. . Consciousness is a deep and challenging mystery. We are apparently far from understanding it better. Material existence involves a wealth of opposites/dualities too. Hot-cold, high-low, up-down, left-right, wide-narrow, light-dark, etc. Evolution tends to progress from simple towards complex, from crude beastial behavior towards peaceful social organization. Going beyond individuation involves preparatory transformation and melding of individual identities, a spiritual prospect. Creator = God or Unlimited Spirit. So now you are excusing the flawed God of the Bible and putting the blame on ET. Imagine the Diaspora saying Aw, it's just those nasty ETs who put us thru such misery. Yes, I can sympathize with the idea that the burning bush was an ET trick, and the arc of the covenant was one hell of a bazaar machine. Likewise turning a stick into a snake and hitting a rock with a stick to get a drink of water. The only thing better than God is more God. More new souls. More procreation. The only way to leave this planet and escape cycles of reincarnation is to get promoted on into the Source. Qualification is thru development of quality consciousness (sometimes referred to as purification). Suffering serves to sensitize the soul. Materialism, wealth, ambition, and procreation direct energy downward away from the crown chakra. Celebacy allows energy to build and flow upward. The crown chakra then gives off energy (photons). Hence the halo depicted on Christ and various saints. That's why priests are not supposed to marry, and the need for procreation is why the Church opposes birth control and abortion for the rest.
Your last sentence is what I consider is how any scientific inquiry is initiated and how knowledge is acquired. It starts with the thought ‘I don’t know something’ and then followed by the questions. Funny, watch children at play. Their curiosity and thirst for exploration is amazing until quashed by a ‘knowing’ adult. The best among us that push the boundaries of knowledge are those with the minds of children...and they don’t take ‘no’ for an answer. BTW, what does nothing really mean?
So, the gist of all this is that there is still no chain of evidence proving 'evolution' is a fact, and many people who scoff at the construct of a 'God' meme will have no problem with claiming UFO's and ET's from 'advanced space-faring civilizations' invented humans and Stuff, which of course to many is a distinction without a difference. At least somewhere in there somebody brought up how rare beneficial mutations are re genetics, they are almost 100% bad re humans, and the mathematical probabilities of any extremely rare positive one being promulgated are exponentially improbable, though without saying so directly. It must be frustrating to the insane that the vast majority of people can sleep just fine not knowing one way or the other about 'Creation', going by the posts in this thread. I'll add that formal 'logic' is just circular reasoning, and remains so no matter how wide one makes the circle at the end of the day, which is why the empirical method relies entirely on moral principles, not 'rational' ones.;, i.e. the 'science' is only as good as the standards of honesty of those practicing it, which these days isn't very high at all, given that so many papers in academia these days are full of faked data and fake 'conclusions', and over half of academicians with higher level degrees suffer from some mental illness or other.
This is something that's always made me chuckle. Kids tend to be so logical and yet so curious and willing to understand things in their world--at least until puberty. Then we spend the next 30 or so years thinking in terms of ridiculousness. There are some really great comments going on in this thread.
Only what I've come across in my discussions with those who are avid philosophy readers. I personally choose to come to my own conclusions based on observable facts...including research/findings on the 'paranormal', which most skeptics, scientists & philosophers typically sweep under the rug. Also, what I do is not 'philosophizing'. It's simply listing what is & has been observed, and then logically putting it all together into a simple model that explains everything. The Oneness of All is the 'TOE', and is all we need to know. Everything else is just a study of illusory manifestations. If one adheres to strict logic, keeps an open mind, and keeps an eye on the big picture, one will come to the same conclusions as those who do the same. The 'stuff' cannot become organized in any way unless it were already organized. The very existence of any-thing denotes organization (ie, intelligent design). You may have noticed that Christians often criticize atheists for believing all life came into existence by accident and equating that to believing that a pile of metal can, by chance, form itself into a jumbo jet. Well, in this analogy, there is no need for the jumbo jet to prove intelligent design. There already exists the metal...and the substance composing the metal, and so on. This will never & can never be answered by us, by aliens, or even by Oneness It-self. The reason is simply because the Self cannot escape it-self. Likewise, Oneness cannot escape It-self, and thus never know It-self absolutely. The illusion of Self/Identity is essential for any-thing to exist...which is ironic. If it were not for the ILLUSION there would be no REALITY, and hence, no EXISTENCE. Again, matter/energy would already have to be aware. It cannot 'become' aware/unaware. And, because awareness is THE prerequisite for existence, the question of the 'probability' of our existence is irrelevant. Well, I would clarify by saying INFINITE past/future probabilities that form the eternal 'now'...with all probabilities existing simultaneously in each illusory 'moment'. There is no 'will exist' or 'have existed'. There exists only the 'now'. All is One, so space/distance, time, and therefore motion do not exist. Each specific 'moment' (present/now) represents the nexus of infinite future and infinite past probabilities (moments). Hence, each 'moment' is timeless...that is, ETERNAL. Further, because space/time/motion do not exist, our experiences must essentially be a sequence of static 'snapshots'...as if our brain is a movie projector playing a movie reel that we can move forward or backward on, and at any speed. The act of making choices (through intention/desire/will) is like choosing items on a store shelf and forming them into sequences...becoming 'life' as we know it. Just as with time, how fast or slow we 'view' the movie reel can be variable. Through hypno-regression, we can view multiple life-times at the same time. Now, because All is One, and space/time/motion do not exist, Oneness can experience It-self only via the illusion of separation. And because Oneness cannot escape it-self, it cannot 'know' it-self absolutely...but can only experience it-self infinitely. This is why Oneness is INFINITE. Hence, Oneness is both eternal and infinite. If we could answer how the illusion of separation (and thus awareness/existence) itself 'emerged' out of Oneness (and vice versa), we could answer your remaining questions regarding thought. There is no thought/consciousness/awareness without the illusion of separation. Are you sure you can't will your couch to move? Or do we just not know how? Exactly what distinguishes you, the observer, from the object? Is there really a separation between you and the object? And are you sure there is an 'external' and 'internal'? How would we discern one from the other? Logically, if you imagine the couch moving, it's already happening...just not in your current timeline of experience. To be able to do so requires what I like to call a 'Reality Shift'...and to make this shift requires ENERGY. We already do this all the time, but to increase the energy of one's thoughts/desires to make the shift towards a quick, profound outcome can be done a number of ways: These include concentration/focus, meditation, chanting, magic/occult rituals & charms, prayer/belief/faith, creative visualization, group effort (ie, group of like-minded people = additive energy to group's desire/goal), medicine wheels & regions of high energy/magnetic fields, high-energy buildings (temples, pyramids, cathedrals, 'holy sites', etc.), symbols & geometric shapes (pyramids, pentagrams, etc.). Other tools that can help increase/focus/concentrate energy of thought are certain sound frequencies, music, colors, aromas, foods/herbs, electronic tools (eg, radionics), etc...perhaps also celibacy & fasting. The typical manner in which we attain our desires is with TIME itself. A continuous, ongoing effort to achieve a goal will feed and continue to empower the desire with energy. In time, the desire may have enough energy to trigger a Reality Shift (ie, a shift to a different timeline/parallel reality). Making this shift can be likened to choosing a specific experience from a stack of experiences on a shelf. Sometimes the shift is slow to manifest...other times quick to manifest. A few examples of the power of group energy: * If enough people believed in unicorns, great thought energy would be feeding the belief, and there would be periodic unicorn sightings around the globe. Similarly, the belief by millions/billions of people in certain religious icons has spawned occassional 'holy apparition' sightings & 'miracles' around the world. * If enough people believe that a certain deity is present and is healing sick people in the crowd, real healings will occur. A good example is a Christian/revival meeting complete with singing, dancing, prayer, and repetitive music/drums. The energy of the group comes from their strong belief/faith, and is intensified by music, song, and dance. The energy can reach a high enough level that can actually cure people's illnesses. * Likewise, a stadium full of people focusing their healing thoughts directly on a sick person can instantly heal that person. Similarly, the high level of energy generated by spectators in sports stadiums, and intensified by chanting & music, can alter the outcome of the game. Oftentimes in society, the will/desire of one person (lesser energy) has to move against the will of the collective (greater energy)...the latter acting as a form of resistance against wide-sweeping, opposing social changes. But with time, social changes do manifest (though slowly) as the collective will begins to shift. Sometimes though, a huge (high energy) event can occur to cause a sudden & major shift or disruption in the collective will (eg, war, asteroid strike, major natural upheavals, mass alien landing, etc.). It's even likely that such upheavals are the product of energies that had been building up over a long period of time by the collective will. Additionally, the closer a future probability is to the now, the MORE likely (and the LESS energy it will require) to manifest in the now. The further it is from the now, the LESS likely (and the MORE energy it will require) to manifest in the now. This is why psychics/readers are more accurate if what they 'see' exists closer to the present. However, many more probabilities exist between the present and events much farther off in time, making accuracy more challenging. Also, the more energy something has the more resistant it will be to change. By contrast, the less energy something has the less resistant it will be to change. As an example: If you wish to gamble on a horse race, say, with 10 horses running, you will have a much better chance of winning than if you gamble on which ping pong ball out of 10 balls will be the one chosen. This is because ping pong balls exert more unstable, low thought-mass energy, are thus influenced by less thought energy, and therefore more difficult to predict. By contrast, horses exert more stable , higher thought-mass energy, require greater thought energy to influence, and are therefore easier to predict. Ultimately, it is energy that 'moves' us through different realities. Just like a walk in the woods, we choose the direction/path of our desire through attention & will. But note that ALL infinite (past & future) realities exist simultaneously. That would not fit the definition of God as the Oneness or infinite 'Source' of all that exists, but it may fit the definition of an entity more powerful (with greater abilities) than humans...because all beings, by their very existence, manipulate matter/energy in their own way. Energy (Consciousness) is not created nor destroyed, but merely manipulated. But there are many types of earthly beings/animals that are aware of realities that humans are not aware of. It may have been a natural ability in humans in a distant past, but DNA meddling by ET's may have had a hand in 'dumbing' us down to make us easier to control/enslave. But I can't be certain. Nevertheless, if our mind/body/brain complex could not reduce our true powers like a step-down transformer, then we'd all be running around like monkeys with God-like powers...and that could be very dangerous...not to mention, make our earth/material reality far less convincing, and less stable. Any-thing that exists, no matter what it is, how 'significant' or 'insignificant', or how 'small' or 'large' it is, is aware on some level. Oneness/Consciousness is both the Object and the Observer. I like to say, we are both the Dreamer and the Dream. Exactly! I would add though, Oneness/Creation would be unable to ascertain whether it was acting internally or externally, as it is unable to escape it-self. For all practical purposes, it is a 'closed system'...and is a law unto it-self. It's kind of like the Matrix movie. How could Neo ever know absolutely that he has indeed escaped the Matrix? He can't.
Not science fiction, but a very real possibility...especially considering the overwhelming evidence for ET visition. And how is No. 3 'religion'? There's nothing religious about ET's...though they may be the original inspiration behind some or many religions...and may even be behind the 'miracle' of Fatima. If the vortex is large enough, it would be very difficult to make the determination that we're moving in a grand vortex...particularly if it's infinite in size. We'll have to wait and see if scientists come up with a similar theory. But for now, it explains everything...not to mention, this pattern is observed everywhere.
At some point this has got to stop. We have threads about science theories (Evolution) in the Religion Forum and threads about religious theories (Creationism) in the Science Forum.
You and the mods here obviously agree.. ..but it is just Indoctrination showing, for the false Narrative, 'Creation is religion! Atheism is science!'
Amazing that you actually got something HALF RIGHT for a CHANGE! Creationism is religion as defined by the COURTS of LAW! Scientists can be, and many are, believers in religion. There is even a modern Paleontologist who is a devout Evangelical Christian. https://thewell.intervarsity.org/voices/unlikely-paleontologist-interview-mary-schweitzer-part-1 Here is a list of another 34 Christians who were also famous Scientists. https://www.famousscientists.org/great-scientists-christians/ So you get credit for being half right for a change!
No, it is why the question is philosophical. The model of a Creator is a valid scientific question, where the evidence can be examined. ..unless, of course, you censor it with arbitrary definitions..
