MSNBC’s Melissa Harris Perry: Detroit Is What Happens When Government Is Too Small

Space coast is doing fine and rebounding quickly. It has an adaptable economy because it has good fundamentals. Easy to build, easy to hire and fire, low taxes.

 

the metro was made by suzuki IIRC

 

Sure it is. If you're into elder care, government contracting, and tourism. But the thousands of "rocket scientists" working as desk clerks, Wal Mart greeters, and truck drivers would beg to differ.

and the point is that the Space Coast from 1960 to 2010 put all of its economic eggs into the space basket and, as a result, suffered massive economic downturns in the late 60's, mid 70's and 80s and late 00s.

and, just as in Detroit, those decisions were not made by union workers.

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The Swift was the suzuki model. GM's decision to label the Swift as a GM product hurt the company's image. damage not done by union workers.

 

no, youre right about that. but those decisions were made by the best liars cheats and thieves, union dues could afford.....

 

Within the next 20 years we are going to look like the failing European countries and in another 50 years we will look like Mexico.

I see a bunch of small gated cities that will start popping up within the next 30 years, and the peasants will be left on the outside to fend for themselves. The major cities will start resembling the Mexican border towns, many of which are already appearing to be that away, so it isn't a stretch.

That is if we do not break up the plutocracy and stop voting for the two party corporate clown circus. Keep electing corporate sock puppets and my vision will become a reality. It's the path we are already well on our way to experiencing.

 

All good industries.

They must adapt for sure. Cant fly into space no money for it anymore. The war on poverty has slowed down our space exploration since it started, and now it seems poised to kill it.

What about the other industries? Don't you mean the rocket scientists put their eggs in the NASA basket?

The economy, population are rising, and unemployment falling and below national average. Living space and quality of life is also high. Are you talking about the Space Coast just north of South Florida?

and, just as in Detroit, those decisions were not made by union workers.

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The Swift was the suzuki model. GM's decision to label the Swift as a GM product hurt the company's image. damage not done by union workers.[/QUOTE]

 

Well your right, the unions helped build one of the richest industrial cities in the nation. But that same union helped bring it down to what it is today. They bled the Big Three for big pay and big benefits. Then when the gas crunched hit the nation, the Big Three had no small fuel efficient cars to match the imports and those great wages and benefits prevented them from building them. That led to the imports getting a big foot in the American market. It started with small cars, but soon led to big cars and trucks. Then the American auto worker also got sloppy building them and the imports came on strong. America auto companies kept losing market share until they ended up where they are. The auto union killed the goose that laid the golden eggs.

 

What other industries.

It is obvious what you know of the space Coast is as much as you know about Detroit.

 

You mean the management of the auto companies?

guess you're confused about who pays whom.

 

It isnt the treasure coast but you have industries. Check out the ones I quoted and throw in some agriculture. Did you just move here recently? Used to be even smaller and poorer.

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The unions own a good portion of auto shares outright and through theirs and other similarly aligned pension funds. Wonder why they vote in management willing to cut corners to pay union wages and play by union rules....

 

Hmmm... unfortunately I agree with most that you said. I figured you would post something totally crazy.

 

Wow. You do know that history didn't start in 2009 don't you?

No, of course you don't. Ignorance of history is a primary requirement of "conservatism." It allows you to make believe the unions "owned" the auto companies for the last 80 years. It is ignorance of history that allows you to believe that the last 4 years on the Space coast have been identical to the previous 50.

 

The 100 richest families in America thank you!

 

The unions are big shareholders. I am sorry, they are. Through mutual funds retirement accounts. I think the UAW has around 30% last I checked. Quite a bit. You don't remember them getting certain stock benefits and preferential treatment at the bailout? If you don't think unions hurt car companies why do are new factories built and new employees trained in right to work states while skilled employees and large factories sit idle in union strong Detroit and flint? Michigans recent right to work move is the best thing that happened to that state in a while. Too late for their auto up there.

The last 4 years has been bad everywhere. You probably re electe the reason. Space coast is doing above average. Get out more, talk to people, there is widespread suffering in America now. The stats on the space coast and the rest of Florida continue to out do the national average:

http://www.bls.gov/eag/eag.fl_deltona_msa.htm

That is a fair break down for the economy here. Employment is growing faster the the population. More gains in retail, but manufacturing holding and construction growing and financial services strong. Good mix of an economy for Florida. Expect some leisure economy in paradise.

 

you do know that history is not about "are" but about "was" don't you?

No, of course you don't.

The unions didn't own the auto companies when management was flushing billions down the toilet. The unions didn't manage the auto companies while management was flushing billions down the toilet.

That was done by the board, big stockholders. Wealthy Republicans. The people who destroyed Detroit didn't live there. They didn't work there. They just bled it dry from a distance at their board meetings.

 

Flushing millions down the toilet on who?

Detroit was built by republicans. They ran the town and factories before they were all shut down. Auto is just the latest. But some businesses were able to escape and new cities are being built in the manufacturing south. Why do you think very one is escaping the unions as fast as they can? Because it will mean business success if they deal with them? They had to force Boeing to stay. I know history. I know republicans built all these cities , I know democrats have been running in the ground since, and I have also seen what one republican named Giuliani can do to save a city. Think long and hard and try to find a similar success story from the left. You live in Florida, don't you notice that the worst areas are all democrat run?

 

No.

One of the largest reasons for your bullsh!t intellectually bankrupt equivocation of red states as welfare queens has to do with the fact that these red states are our agricultural centers, and FARM SUBSIDY is counted as 'welfare'.

Whether the farmers want to be paid to NOT grow something...or NOT.

 

You need to stop spewing crap you think is correct, but isn't. Look up "Red State Farm Subsidy". And then be quiet. And then stop claiming you're a Conservative, because you're not.

 

I have to wonder how management was flushing billions down the toilet as you state? Granted management had a lot to do with the problem, but it was mostly the design of some of the cars they pushed on the public, like the Ford Pinto, Cadillac Cimarron, AMC Pacer, etc.

But the high union wages and benefits and the growing number of retirees is what did the auto companies in. When the gas crunch hit America and the imports saw an opening in the American market for their fuel efficient cars, which before, isn't what most of the American public wanted, the Big Three had nothing like it to challenge foreign imports. With wages, benefits and the growing number of retirees increasing, it was impossible to build a comparable small American car that could compete with the small imports. The American auto companies would lose money trying to build them. That gave the imports the foot hold they needed. Once the imports started building over here, it only got worse. They got land to build on cheap, or given to them. They got big tax breaks, cheaper labor as they kept unions out and didn't have the retirement problem Detroit had. The cost of building a car was much more expensive for the Big Three. Because of that expense, they couldn't put all the extras on their cars the imports could. Things only kept getting worse. As they kept losing market shares, it got to the point their were more retirees drawing these great pensions and health care than GM had working. The American auto industry was in a condition they couldn't get out of.

 

Please. Detroit was built by auto workers. It was destroyed by auto company management.

The decisions that surrendered more than 50% of the Us auto market to foreign competition were not made by union workers, were not made by Democrats, they were made by wholly republican upper management.

As noted earlier, what bought the auto industry in the US to the brink of extinction were the corvair, the mustang II, the Pinto, Gremlin, Pacer, planned obsolescence, jury verdicts that were cheaper than recalls. That's what made Americans stop buying cars from the Big 3 and led to the decimation of any city that depended on the auto industry and none of those decisions were made by Democrats, auto-workers, or union members anywhere.

 

Who held a gun to the heads of the auto executives and forced them to sign contracts?

The auto executives made decisions based on next quarter's income statement rather than the long term interests of the company or the shareholders.

Example: when the gas crisis ended and prices dropped did the big three go for quality, fuel efficiency, reliability or for even bigger vehicles like the Hummer, the Suburban, the Excursion.

Do not blame unions for the decisions of management. I can guarantee you that retired auto workers suffer every day because of the decisions management made 30 years ago.

 

Just a hint, but that's a terrible argument. It's the auto executive's fault for caving into union demands? The problem with your argument is that it fully recognizes where the problem comes from, while trying to find a scapegoat on someone else who lost the negotiation war.

 

You realize it was a powerhouse before the auto industry right?

Detroit was in free fall before they were under threat by imports. Why didn't te democrats in charge fund pensions as they went?

Same management that sells more cars then any other company? Why do all new factories start in right to work states away from the union if they help car companies? Because the other managers are smart to stay away from them because they kill companies after all?

You should answer why the decline happened before imports, why manufacturers run from Detroit, why their taxes are so high if their services so low and pensions unfunded. Then you will not just be scapegoating. Besides Obama saved the auto industry. Haven't you heard? He campaigned on it and now Detroit is wonderful again.

 

Really?

So, I go to a car dealer and I should agree to pay list and allow the dealer to add undercoating and a 5 year warranty because by doing so I'm making sure the dealer will make more money and that's good just in case I want another car in 5 years?

Please.

The auto workers settling for less money would have changed nothing. People stopped buying American cars because of quality, not because of what the auto workers were being paid. Quality.

Management had choices.
They could have retooled, oh wait, they eventually did that.
They could have built a better product, oh wait, they eventually did that too.

Union representatives did just what they are supposed to do. Get the best deal for the people they are representing.

Now here's your hint:

Labor has no shelf life. Once an hour is gone the labor that could have been performed will never ever be performed and the money that could have been made will never be made. Therefore, labor's interest is in maximizing current earnings. Management's interest is supposed to be long term growth, long term profitability. For management that lost hour of labor is without meaning because replacing it is a tiny incremental cost.

In the labor negotiations union representatives did what they are supposed to do. Represent the interests of the workers. Management failed. Management failed to represent the interests of stockholders by making decisions based on next quarter's income statement and how those numbers would reflect in management compensation.

Try a different hint. Perhaps on a subject you understand.

 

From 1961 to 1978 the big three lost a total 4.7% of market share
From 1978 to 1995 they lost 14%
From 1995 to 2010 they lost 40%

the unions and union representation was strongest prior to 1978

Around 1978 was the Pinto and the revelation of "planned obsolescence"
Around 1980 was the 2nd gas crisis.
1985-1995 saw the Japanese companies introducing the concept of "value added" to their design while the big three concentrated on size.

not the unions, not the Democrats, just good old Republican greed.