Nigel Farage visits Bulgaria. Talk Show host goes tough on him.

Sorry allow me to amend what I said. The approximate doubling of Romanian GDP was more like every two years, but still this is a change happening in less than a person's lifetime... It is happening during someone's youthtime.

 

only on paper , your government does invisible but very effective or "effective" job . believe me "they" get nothing

 

That is very true. Starting with the UK Border Agency, they do a lot of unofficial stuff that undermines non-citizens. They seem to take advantage of the old & clumsy administrative system as a cover to deliberately create inconsistencies, mess with non-citizens' documents etc.

If you talk to more than one officer, you notice they give you contradictory replies by mail or phone. Formulation of procedures seems deliberately ambiguous.

 

I'm sorry, litwin, but this is quite simply not true.

 

The UK Border Agency might well do a lot of unofficial stuff. They are at the sharp end. But EU citizens do get benefits as UK citizens do, once they have satisfied the authorities they have a right to be here they no longer deal with border agency staff. Benefits office staff might not treat them with much sympathy all the same. There are also several agencies who will help if they should feel they have been unjustifiably denied what they are entitled to. This one (tax payer funded) for example.

I'll reply to your previous post as soon as I can.

 

It's ok, don't worry, take your time.

 

ok, do you know that in Sweden you can stay more then 6 m if you don't have full time job? and without job you can not get social number which mean you can not left any application, computer will simply not allow you to do so... and how the heck a gypsy can get those benefits?

 

Bulgarians and Romanians, welcome to Sweden country of Great social benefits !!

 

A Hungarian politician who has pledged his allegiance to the EU and its treaties and who was approved by the EU Council (by majority voting) and then by the EU parliament. It isn't a Hungarian problem; It is a British problem, because our governments choose to submit to the EU despite having no democratic mandate to do so, and because we could choose to withdraw altogether.

I haven't claimed to, ever.

And you don't think Romanian ex-pats are capable of following the news from Romania? That they don't keep in touch with their families there? That they can't read the exact same statistics available to anyone else?

And well done to Romania. Perhaps you'll be able to start contributing to the EU budget before too long? Maybe you'll become net contributors one day? Incidentally, MEPs have just voted to increase the budget despite preaching austerity to member states. (UKIP voted against the increase, the Conservatives abstained and their coalition partners along with our official opposition voted for.)

Now that's a funny comment!

Vlad, it's simple maths. You don't know my country at all if you think £80 buys pretty much nothing here. It would buy a week's food for 2 and it buys a lot more in Romania because the cost of living is far less there. I don't need to go to Romania. Everyone but you can see that.

When the standard of living in Romania matches Western standards, no doubt they will. You might even have an influx of Western European citizens to contend with! Until then, we have enough problems of our own without having to deal with an influx of unskilled workers. Immigration should at least be managed on a points basis.

 

Believe it or not we are a nation of self-denigrating people (unlike the proud Poles for example). tamora try to think of things in a focalized manner. It's logic saying that just as some are very proud of their nations, there must also be the opposite, a 'sociological condition' in which people have low self-esteem as a nation without any real reason for it. I think it's some bad gene.

So believe it or not, people don't watch television about the country or its politics, nor from abroad, nor at home, because 'it doesn't matter anyway'. That's the mentality. Just ask them... how much they like to watch news & politics of Romania and you will discover some innate lack of civic responsibility. Yes, we probably are some of the greatest fatalists in Europe. A mentality that somehow got deeply embedded in us that even highly educated people like medics act like that subconsciously.

Yes we will.

I don't mind money going out of the country as long as it's going to the EU. I am part of the EU. And think of it: What I showed you is just the visible, the official GDP. There is more of it, several times that of what you see in the stats, which is lost every year thanks to one of the lowest taxation systems in Europe and thanks to thriving black markets (a hidden economy which makes up most of the de facto Romanian economy), a hell of an amount of money that is invisible to fiscal regulators. So I do mind my money going away if it is moving into the economic sectors that do not pay taxes, sustain on very high but unofficial incomes, that's Romania.

The above have started to improve, rather abruptly in the last ten years. The problem in Romania is not economy but mentality. That takes time, but not that much.

Agriculture is underdeveloped. Industry is non-existent as it was all disbanded when communism collapsed. Despite all this, in Romanian economy there are no economic indicators that predict anything not in favor of the kind of growth from the graph (in normal economic conditions, not the crisis now, as the economy of all countries is stagnating).

Growth here between 2000-2009 was always sustainable. If you add the agriculture, which before the war was the 2nd largest in Europe, which will also be revived one day and if you continue calculating from 2013 in economic conditions predating 2009, you notice that by as early as 2021 Romania would be supposed to reach the same GDP as the countries of Western Europe. But now because of the crisis, this harmonization of eastern economy with the western ones gets farther into the future, depending on when growth in the world will be resumed again.

What's funny here is that you take the trouble to notice something like that. It's not even on topic.

Wrong.

Gas for cars = highest price in Europe. Higher than in Germany.
One of the highest VATs in Europe (thanks to the low number of businesses that issue a receipt, like I said above, so government tried to improve the national budget by rising this tax on the few who pay).
Meat can be, depending on the type and manufacturer, exactly the same as in the UK or higher.

Only alcohol and cigarettes are the cheaper ones from a UK perspective.

That everyone who tells you that... Who are they? Are they medics working with you? I just told you about the illegal economy of most of Romania. Because of the extremely inefficient and corrupt administration of health in Romania, people, I mean all the people of this country don't entrust the government they so 'keenly' elected (turnout at polls was 30% last time) with the subsidies but put the money, sometimes hundreds of Euros directly in the medic's hand.

So what are they complaining of? Filthy old hospitals? No subsidies for health equipment? True. But they are somewhat not honest if they complain of their incomes. Unofficial as they may be, they are high. Patients are plentiful and usually bring an envelope with all they can save, very often they overstretch the limits of what they afford. So what's their problem? Patients who are brought to hospital not in an urgent condition sometimes have to buy for themselves everything, from syringes to perfusions (usually the relatives from the closest pharmacies, so not even from the hospital) and they do.

Your problems will end sooner than you think.

 

So, not everyone shares your faith in Romania's future, but according to you these people have some kind of personality deficiency. That is what you're saying, isn't it?

Don't be silly. Of course they do, here at least. My friends and colleagues are well informed about the situation in Romania and I hardly think they are unique.

I'm not surprised you feel so enthusiastic about paying more for your EU membership as you're such a big fan of it. I am totally opposed to my money going to the EU for reasons I am sure you are not interested in. And yes, Vlad, the Romanian economy has made great strides, but that's never been in dispute so it's not me you need to convince, but your fellow citizens. If you could convince your poor unskilled gypsies especially, we'd be grateful.

I don't know what your sources are for this, but I put your view to my friends and colleagues and they laughed. They tell me that costs are at least 50% lower in Bucharest than they are in London. Food, housing, transport, gasoline, tuition fees, etc, are all cheaper in Romania. (You can check up to date gas prices from around the world here.) You will note that gas prices in Romania are considerably cheaper than in both the UK and Germany.) And yes, VAT in Romania is higher, but costs overall are still lower. (There are lots of comparison sites available to back this up, but I will find you some if you can't find them for yourself.)

Corruption in Romania is already well known and turnout in Romania for European elections was only 28%. Does that mean Romanians trust the EU even less than they do your domestic politicians? Or are they apathetic about voting all the time? Do you think sending more to the EU will make Romania less corrupt? If so, how?

They're not complaining at all. They have simply exercised their right to free movement to work and live where they feel they are better off. Perhaps they are the ones who haven't been corrupted or maybe they didn't like being corrupted. I don't want to cause offence by asking!

Oh really? Please, what qualifies you to say that? I don't suffer in any way from a low sense of self-esteem, but I am a realist and there is little likelihood of government policies changing (and the next likely government has nothing radically different to offer) so our problems will get a lot worse before they get better. 'More Europe' certainly will not help.

 

Yes, we all have, in the same way UK people are paranoid about their safety to the point where they leave the lights on in public indoor spaces 24/7 even in summer when the sky is clear. ...in the same way Nigel tends to continue this immense waste, resume causing pollution when says global warming is a corporate scam. From a scientific point of view, that's as embarrassing as saying that the sun revolves around the Earth. Each nation has its own bad traits with no exception. Some due to communism, some due to other things. I've only described ours.

Your colleagues might be people with some education. But the average, the majority, is not so keen on following anything related to politics.

Exactly. What I need to convince you of is precisely what you say, that my fellow citizens will learn that soon enough.

We will, we will integrate them into society. Just wait a few more years and bingo!

You should check the diesel price by selecting the diesel option on the source you quickly google searched. Notice that the difference between Romanian oil price and Western/Northern Europe price is of a few Euro cents. That's not 50%. Also you forget that this country is not as stable as yours. Prices go up and down dramatically, often from week to week. There really were more than a few times when our oil was slightly more expensive than elswhere in Europe in the same way it is now slightly cheaper. Diesel is widely used here.

Changes in everything take place so often that even I may not be up to date all the time.

Yes, the most apathetic. People here just believe that it's over, it's the end, that nothing will ever change.

I don't believe that. I like the EU for different reasons.

Running away from the battlefield does not help you win any battle. Running away instead of putting pressure on health administrative bodies to be more transparent will not end corruption but will stimulate it. That can only come from a population with the right mentality / the right amount of self-dignity.

The Romanian wave of immigration has reached its peak long ago. Now it's recessing and will recess for the rest of world history. Communism was an experiment that tampered with the way consciousness works, as well as civic values. I dare say that because communism in Eastern Europe will never be repeated.

 

Speak for yourself. We have a rather over-zealous politically led health and safety culture, which is generally treated with resigned acceptance. People in the UK are not paranoid, though some individuals are, but which public places are you referring to specifically?

Do keep up Vlad. Even people who were trying to convince us of their global warming theories don’t say 'global warming' anymore because the globe hasn't warmed for more than a decade. The climate has changed and it has always changed throughout history. What UKIP wants is a genuine scientific investigation into its causes before we add billions upon billions to our national debt, that British children will be forced to repay, trying to alter it. The climate change case as it's currently being presented is hard to see as anything other than a scam. No one wants pollution. (Incidentally, I thought you wanted this discussion to stay on topic?)

But the people who left Romania followed politics or at least considered their own circumstances before deciding to leave, and having made the trip one way will probably make the same trip in reverse if it suits them. Don't forget to take this into account.

As I’ve already said it, you obviously don’t need to convince me. Good luck with integrating gypsies. I hope they want to be integrated into your society. Gypsies in Britain seem to want their own society, and just want us to accept that they must be treated differently at the expense of those of us who pay our taxes.

Oh FCOL! I didn't say EVERYTHING was 50% less. OVERALL costs are considerably lower there by at least 50%. That's why £80 obviously buys more there than it does here. And YOU said "Gas for cars = highest price in Europe." It only took a quick Google search to find a reputable source to find that to be false! Even if you'd said DIESEL costs were the highest, you would have still been wrong. Diesel is more expensive in the UK by a lot more than 'a few cents'. I know fuel costs have risen there; they've risen here too! If fuel prices in Romania have ever been as high as they are here for any length of time, the country would grind to a halt as not enough people on Romanian wages just couldn't pay for it and pay all their other expenses at the same time. Prices are likely to go up if Romania ever joins the euro. Just as well the country has dropped its plans to join the euro for the forseeable future.

You might deliver your opinions after 'quick' Google searches, but some of us consider other people's arguments a little more carefully than that as I did. Nor did I forget that Romania is not as stable as the UK (and that is surely another reason why some Romanians emigrate?) So stop being a twit and pretending you can read minds. Actually, you're not really someone who provides sources of any kind much, are you?

Changes in everything take place everywhere. We all indirectly buy goods on the world market and are subject to its fluctuations, whether its crude oil, crops, metals, meat, or whatever. No doubt problems are exacerbated by corruption in civic and political spheres though. And if corruption in Romania is a deeply rooted as you portray, I admire your optimism and loyalty to your country in thinking there will be a 'bingo' type effect in anything!

But Romanians still move because they do believe they can improve their lives in doing so, regardless of politicians.

And your reasons make sense to you no doubt, just as mine do to me. I expect living in a country that has been a net beneficiary of EU funds helps your ambivalence towards it.

But not everyone wants to fight 'on the battlefield'. Some just want to improve their lives using the rights they have, so they emigrate. You support a system which gives them that right, but you don't think people should use it? Worse than that … you even call their characters into question as if anyone who doesn’t share your world view is lacking in character in some way! How are you fighting? Have you stood for public office, or helped someone else who has? Did you vote for your current government?

Our problems, unfortunately, are far from being restricted to immigration from Romania. And I don't believe immigration from Romania has reached its peak at all. Romanians don't even get free access until January next year. One thing that is likely to lessen the effect is that our politicians have not opened our borders to new countries straightaway as they did previously; this time other countries must allow free access or deal with the European Commission. They have though had to admit they don’t know how many will come (they haven’t made any estimates public) and it makes planning pubic services a huge headache and official British figures suggest the numbers are still rising. You will remember I told you that our public services are already at breaking point?

Vlad, no one can change ‘world history’ not even you. Nor can you predict the world’s future, though I think you're right in that communism as we knew it will never be repeated, but frankly some of your opinions seem to be based on hope and wishful thinking.

 

Global warming is an expression people use to broadly refer to all the effects of human activity on the environment.

They didn't follow anything. And there is strong evidence that Romanians don't like to follow politics of any kind. They don't care. They say it doesn't make any difference. The strong evidence is right now right in front of you. This forum... How many Romanians do you see here apart from myself? How many British do you see here apart from yourself? The numbers speak for themselves. No need for further comments on my part.

I don't, in fact that's what I've been telling you about since the start of this thread. Glad you say it yourself now.

Sometimes I say things without checking them out because I'm confident in what I know. I always speak with Romanians like myself about lots of things. But I am someone who provides sources of some kind... I did a few posts ago regarding the economic/social growth of Romania.

You understand only peripherally how post-communist societies work and your friends may not be far-sighted enough to explain it to you. I don't blame you, it's not your fault. But things here tend to change very abruptly, unexpectedly. Almost every year Romania looks like a different country than the year before.

Do they? Why you generalize? More than 95% of all Romanians that exist are still in the country. It sounds as if you call us nomadic wanderers and that's not nice, that's not a defining trait of our nation.

How about you provide some of your beloved kinds of sources for this? It's your turn. You say you know the EU well so can you show me the exact amount of EU funds that Romania has used since we joined in 2007 (out of the amount that has been offered to her by default)?

I do believe they should use it. It's just that Nigel's fears that they will abuse it is not founded. That's the same original idea of the thread.

I'm currently a student. My goal is a PhD. I didn't vote for the current president since he was elected in 2004 when I was only 13.

Well, you and Nigel sound as if all the troubles of England come from Eastern Europe.

What do you mean Romanians don't even get free access until January next year? We can enter that UK of yours with just our ordinary Romanian national ID card. No questions, no bags searched, ever. It's been like that ever since January 2007. What's your source?

I can't. I don't need to. It changes by itself, for everyone to see the facts in the end.

 

Scummy Romanian immigrants setting up an illegal camp in a London park, probably not long before they steal someone's cash at a cashpoint machine

 

So what has this got to do with the internal problems your govt has? I don't see any correlation between these homeless immigrants and the UK governmental debt that exceeds 100% of the country's GDP. As seen in the pic, they clearly aren't doing well on your government welfare, are they?

Anyway, can you prove these ones come from Romania in particular? Romanian homeless gypsies look different. They could have come from many countries. Eastern Europe is a big place. Also demonstrate that this is a recently taken photo and not a rather old one like from 2007 or 2008 like I suspect.

 

He doesn't even have a university degree yet he speaks about world economics. You need to have some academic/scientific years of experience behind to do that. He attracts attention only because that's what crazy, daring people do. Luckily for him, that country (talking about England in particular) offers him plenty of people from his category to support his quest. Real trouble starts when countries fall into the hands of the barely literate. Being able to read and write does not qualify you for real politics. This is why I believe he will not win the general elections. It would be funny to see him win though, to see pressure from the international community mount on him. He is not someone who can run a country. I'd really like him to become PM so you could see that (I would prepare myself loads of popcorn and soda for the first months of his term. His term will be my source of entertainment).

While the people of Scotland for example have an inherent tendency towards higher education and were able to provide free education despite not even being independent, in England a 3 year university degree alone costs 27000 pounds. Figures. Oh yes, go ahead, blame Labor and the Tories, the oldest, most established and most experienced political structures in UK politics. Speaking of UKIP even I am older than its history. This party has no history and its people have no education from what I see. Academic experience in any field is what separates people of the world into two categories. You can tell the difference just by looking at somebody's face, not to mention somebody's words.

 

These posts are getting very long, so just answer the most pressing points to keep this short!

Employers must apply for work permits for Romanians (and Bulgarian) workers and the workers themselves must apply for 'accession worker cards'. Low skilled workers are restricted to the quota system in the agriculture and food production sectors. However, these restrictions are temporary. The restrictions will be lifted on 1 January next year. Any country that wants to extend them must deal with the European Commission. Few people are LOL here.

I'm really surprised you do not know this.

Read more here

 

Ha! If degrees are worth so much, why did the people who have them lead us into a financial crisis at all? Having real life experience qualifies a politician as much as a degree ever will, especially when these degrees are held by professional politicians, ie they’ve never or barely ever, had a career or even a job outside politics, who put their own and multinational interests first every time they face a choice. Farage would cut through his opponents with ease, which is why of course they’re too cowardly to face him in an open debate. He is one of those lucky people who knew what he wanted to do and he knew he didn’t need a university education in order to do it. He is hardly the first intelligent person to succeed without a university education. I don’t expect that he will ever become PM. I know he doesn’t expect to either. What he is doing is pushing the debate into the direction it needs to do.

I am well aware of the differences between university education in Scotland and England. (I have 2 children, one at university in Scotland and one in England.)

Scotland can provide free university education because education is something Scotland decides for itself … it’s a devolved power. England cannot provide free university education to its students because if it does it will have to provide free university education for all EU students. Even you must see this is completely and totally unsustainable? This problem affects Scotland too and Scotland is looking at how it can legally charge EU students (if it leaves the UK and if it is accepted as an EU member state).

Not everything is political, but who else should I hold responsible for political failings? No other party has been in power!

UKIP is very young. Well … new parties are bound to rise when the old ones are crap. UKIP has a mixture of all kinds of people, including academics, (the party’s economic spokesman has a first class degree in history and economics from Oxford University) and blue collar workers. UKIP is not perfect, no party is, but its policies are much more to my liking so I’ll take it over its rivals* every single time until their can prove they are worthy of my support, and growing numbers of people feel the same way.

*I actually cannot imagine circumstances in which I would ever vote for parties that have proven themselves to be so unworthy and incompetent over so many years.

 

Yours were longer than mine lately.

I know this. But you said people who fall in this category 'don't even get free access'. That sounded so different than what you say now. But I knew this nevertheless. I discussed it in posts that are over a year old.

I'm still waiting for you to show me how much of a 'net beneficiary' of EU funds my country is.

 

I wouldn't know whose are the longest. I haven't compared them for length. They are getting rather long though!

In that case, I'm surprised you didn't realise I was talking about access to the UK labour market. Obviously, visitors have access to the country. That's why we have so many Romanians begging, etc, on our streets.

Why should I show you that? Find out for yourself if you're interested. I've simply stated a fact: Romania is a net beneficiary of EU funds. Are you denying that?

 

I've done the necessary research on this.

Of the 28 EU Member States, only 11 of them are net contributors to the EU budget. The rest are net receivers from the EU budget.

Britain is the fourth biggest net contributor to the EU budget, giving around 62.7 euros per person per year. We give 0.24% of our national GDP to the EU every year.

Romania, on the other hand, is the fifth biggest receiver of EU funds. It receives 74.8 euros per person per year. 1.24% of its annual GDP is money it receives from the EU.

 

EU= Daylight robbery
An almighty leach that is helping to destroy our economy and our way of life.

 

Yes. If it's such a simple fact then you should have no trouble proving it.

- - - Updated - - -

Source?

 

It's no trouble at all. I did a simple Google search for the facts for you. The European Commission says there are lots of different ways to calculate the figures. If you look for yourself, you might find a source that presents the facts in a way that is more palatable to you.

[The figures are from several years ago, I'll see if I can find something more up to date.]

Try here for 2012 stats.