Outsourcing Gone Wild...

Then we have nothing to say to each other. You, by definition, demand economic irrationality.

 

I'm sure wanting one's own nation to be wealthy is irrational to you. We are 2 different people. You would claim the U.K. was rich if you were making 10 trillion a year while the rest of your people starved. Like I said before, all western nations have a problem with traitors.

 

An economic nationalist, by definition, supports economic irrationality. They are no different to the mercantilist bobbins. Last comment to you as there's no point in any discussion. My stance, being completely reliant on economic analysis, will be quite alien to you. Your non-economic responses, being completely reliant on ignoring economic analysis, will just bore me. Cheers anyway!

 

Those who rely on "economic analysis" are the reason western nations are in the current dilemma they are in. Your analysis is based upon whatever works best for the top percentile, and you parade as if it represents what's best for us all. I'll admit, you're the most knowledgeable globalist one can argue with on this site. A shame you choose to use that knowledge to help bankrupt western society.

 

If someone else can the same job better and cheaper, why not?
We can focus on high value added work, like designing ipads!

 

Innovation is key. The US needs to "up" on its record and stop looking for johnny foreigner as an excuse for any limitations

 

Yeah, that will feed 300 million people. It matters not how much we innovate when as soon as a product leaves the development stage it gets produced in China. Those at the bottom need to figure out how to get the last few people with real incomes jobs outsourced too. Then we won't have to listen to anymore of this tripe from the few left. Apparently, asking you all to step outside your pretty bubble is too much. You must feel the pain as well. We need lawyers, doctors, nurses, teachers and even politicians from other nations who will do the work cheaper.

 

Japan, Germany, Switzerland all have higher manufacturing costs than US, and yet they are able to export a lot more to China on capital basis. How are they able to do that? When can we stop complaining and blaming and work to solve the problems?

 

Japan's, Germany's, and Switzerland's public sector elite put their citizens first when making a decision. Their private sector elite acknowledge "made in China" means junk and don't want it on the side of their products, as well as know knockoffs and intellectual theft are all too common to be considered coincidences. All 3 truly care about their nations. Please don't act like American private or public sector elite are anywhere near them when it comes to being genuine. There are no workers in the world getting hurt by globalization more than the American worker and the Chinese worker. Both are getting played. The average monthly income of manufacturing workers anywhere in the world is 2k-3k in US dollars. Americans can't find a job and Chinese average 136$ a month. Both country's governments deserve to be toppled, and their private sector elites punished accordingly.

 

I'm afraid the US is caught in an economic nationalist vicious cycle. The long term costs will be significant

 

Being that the workers are going nowhere but down hill, "successful gains" means for the top, "the good of the nation" means the top's pocket books, "the long term costs" will be the top's to bare, and frankly, we(the bottom 90% the top never consider) couldn't care less.

 

What empirical analysis into trade effects are you using then? Let me guess: none!

 

There is no more empirical proof needed than houses all across America for sale from owners who once could afford but can't any longer, with no one who can afford to buy even though they are being sold for less than that to which is owed. More empty commercial buildings and factories than those to which are operational. Our own leaders know things are in dire straights and are smart enough to acknowledge that fact. The only thing that is argued is can it be saved while keeping the free trade status quo. You know nothing but what you read, the evidence glaring from such a post. The entirety of America has been ill effected. But I must admit, I like to hear your side speak more and more. The average American can tell who is on their side, and with every word you post, know that protectionism is what they want, for the simple fact it is what you don't want.

 

There are a number of studies that show trade with China, due to its currency maipulation and anti-union laws, cost low wage Americans jobs and suppress wages.

http://www.epi.org/publications/entry/bp219/

http://www.twnside.org.sg/title/twe269f.htm

Indeed, I know of no study which shows otherwise.

Now, trade is generally good for both partners in the aggregage, but that doesn't mean the benefits and burdens are fairly distributed within each country. People don't buy groceries "in the aggregate" with "aggregate" dollars. They buy groceries with their salary.

Trade with sweatshop nations like China benefit the top brackets in this country and harms the lower brackets. That's simply undeniable.

The response is something to be discussed. But the problem is undeniable.

 

The studies you've chosen aren't much cop, adopting methodologies that are incapable of mapping the various trade effects. Now we do now that, as demonstrated by the Heckscher-Ohlin model, we can expect a redistribution effect from labour to capital. However, this is a consequence of specialisation within a static context. To understand the impact of trade one has to refer to multiple factors. For example, consider the impact of multinationals and the impact on capital mobility. Molnar et al (2008, Globalisation and Employment in the OECD, OECD Journal: Economic Studies) finds that "the expansion of employment in the foreign affiliates of domestically owned companies appears to have a significant positive association with the level of domestic employment in the United States"

And that's an important point! The problem isn't actually trade but the inequalities that are allowed to fester in the US. Trade is used as a scapegoat, particularly given consensus politics which refuses to address the structural problems that the US economy faces.

 

Trade??
　
Oh yea we traded our middle class security, and a stable economy for cheap trinkets (AKA junk), and an unlimited financial support of communism and the dictators who prosper from it.
　
　
If you have a diamond or a chunk of gold I will trade you for it, I’m sure my garbage can is almost full out back. What a deal!! Eh?

 

What's irrational is cheerleading for your nation of origin while at the same time supporting policies that work to it's detriment and somehow simultaneously ignoring basic economics. The US is wealthier as a nation thanks in large part to our willingness and availability of nations to trade with.

You'd put a huge dent in your economic ignorance if you'd step down from the soap box and spend a few minutes trying to wrap your head around the very basic concepts of comparative advantage and specialization.

We have one of the highest standards of living in the entire world thanks in large part to being able to buy goods that are manufactured more cheaply elsewhere, thus freeing up resources here to do things that are more productive, but hey I guess some of you folks would rather us be sewing t-shirts than starting google or facebook...

 

You have to start somewhere, everybody isn't born a CEO, or with a trust fund to fall back on until you create the next new craze.

 

I don't get what your driving at, there will always be jobs that can't be outsourced like your plumber or electrician, the point is that folks in this thread are lamenting the decline of manufacturing in the US and ignoring the fact that those types of jobs will be replaced with something more productive whether it's creating the next tablet PC or writing code for machinery that replaces factory workers anyway.

We don't need jobs turning a wrench in an assembly line anymore than we need droves of folks to still growing crops. We ought to embrace the reduction in manufacturing as it's indicative of growth in another sector.

 

Not everyone can be a doctor. WE DO NEED jobs turning wrenches in assembly lines. A service economy cannot sustain itself. 90% of workers in the service industry don't make enough money to use said services. You are advocating a nation of pharaohs and serfs. Quite frankly, you disgust me.

 

Don't you know America? We should all be so thankful to globalism! Those lucky enough to have jobs are working for the same wage as 10 years ago, with half the number of employees helping, so everyone is doing twice the work for that same wage, while paying 2 to 3 times the amount for anything we need as then, all of which doesn't last a 1/10 as long! Single stitch clothes that disintegrate after 10 washings! Made with toxic chemicals that would be banned here! Hip hip hooray! T.V.s for 100s of dollars that break in 3 years!! Woo hoo!! Tools that snap if you use them for anything more than looking at!! Yippee skippy!!! All so we can help places like China build markets!! Which at 136$ a month for the average worker should take about 1000 years!!! Hallelujah!!! Don't you all know? It's globalists who care. It's not about them pimping the whole world. They are working to make the world a better place. Every night I kneel and pray, "please lord, help globalists like Reiver and Anikdote save us from ourselves. The well being of nations depends on them making billions while screwing over their own people. Amen."

 

Not everyone needs to be a doctor and no, a wrench turner on an assembly line is neither necessary nor productive. If that's your opinion then you also ought to support people being paid to dig and fill up the same hole day after day...

A service economy can't sustain? How does Hong Kong do so well? They have hardly any natural resources and run trade deficits every single year... and yet their one of the most wealthy nations on earth, your world view simply can't explain this.

I'm advocating taking advantage of the gains to be made from trade, you on the other hand are clinging to the failboat protectionism which has been proven time and again to be a failure.

Want to know what disgusts me? Folks that would rather hang on to their ignorance and nationalism than make the slightest attempt at understanding the well understood gains to be had from trade. It seems willful ignorance knows no limits.

 

The only things that worries me is that free trade might put downward pressures on (efficient) enviromental regulations. Businesses would choose to move overseas, where they can push pollution costs onto innocent bystanders. I suppose you could argue we aren't really interested in preventing pollution here in American though (dunno if you remember all the hell about the Cap and Trade Bill), so this worry is moot.

 

I agree with all of this, we aren't interested in any type of environmental regulation. But is that a result of our inability to find an efficient way to regulate without creating too harmful of a distortion or is it because there isn't a consensus on whether or not we A) have any impact or B) are responsible for climate changes that occur... I suppose any answer to that question however isn't relevant to this thread. Given that outsourcing has no impact on the outcome.

My concern, as a software developer, and from my experience, often times quality is sacrificed at the alter of quantity and turn around time on products. One could argue however that getting a product into consumer hands as quickly as possible means that defects are also found as rapidly and can then be rectified. I suppose this is an isolated case however.

 

I have had this discussion with him before, and told him the exact same thing. I explained that while a few people may benefit from protectionism, the vast majority of Americans would be harmed!! The unemployed would benefit from the increase in jobs that would follow protectionist policies, but the other 300 million people who didn't find new jobs as a result would all be harmed!! He doesn't seem to care!! The idea that brown people are making stuff instead of Americans is offensive to him(it is a value judgment, not one based on economic rationality), therefore no amount of rational argument is going to convince him otherwise. He would harm hundreds of millions, in order to help somewhere between a few hundred thousand and a few million(depending on how many jobs were actually created). It is nonsense, but it is gaining a lot of traction among the right. Which is scary, because free trade used to be one of the few things they were right about, and now many are even switching on that issue!! Apparently having a good idea was distasteful to them!!


PS. I suppose it makes a little more sense now that we have so many people unemployed, but it still is nonsense. I don't think he understands that he is basically advocating a lower standard of living for almost everyone in this country!!