Pastor losing congregation over his pro-homosexual stand

thousands of same sex couples are married in this country, so it's not only happened before, it's still happening today


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That makes no real sense. You need to explain why it makes sense in your mind.

No, biology does not alleviate the need and emotional desire for homosexual couples to marry; nor does biology reasonably exclude homosexual couples from attaining and enjoying the legal benefits and privileges of marriage. Biology does not exclude (infertile) heterosexuals from that legal marital status... why should it exclude homosexuals at all, considering that many do bear children (one way or the other)?

Please, explain.

 

And they even have children. (How about that!)

 

I love my brother. Partners in business together. Own land, real estate and investments together with buy sell agreements on all. Own life insurance on each others lives and corresponding provisions in our wills. Why the special treatment for homosexual couples?
Marriage isnt about equal rights, and is instead specifically all about creating unequal rights for the married, denied to all who are unmarried. Made available exclusively to heterosexual couples for thousands of years because only heterosexual couples procreate. If you also want to make it available to homosexual couples, government loses any justification they had for not making it available to any two consenting adults who desire it. The only reason closely related couples are excluded from marriage is the same reason heterosexual couples are included. THE POTENTIAL OF PROCREATION. If government is to forcefully sever from marriage the process of procreation, they cant use the potential of procreation to exclude closely related couples. And discrimination against platonic couples in the form of state laws that annul or disolve marriages for a failure to consummate the relationship would also have to be eliminated.

ALL distinctions drawn in the law that discriminate between people must meet Constitutional requirements. This special treatment for gays for no other reason than the fact that they are gay is absurd.

 

Not looking for "special" (as you imagine and erroneously support), but EQUALITY for same-sex COUPLES. That some heterosexuals couples posses the "potential for procreation", isn't a fully-logical reason to exclude homosexual couples from ALL privileges and benefits of legal marriage.

We won't stop fighting for it, until we have it.

 

Dont confuse that which you cannot comprehend with that which is wrong

 

???? My brother and I are of the same sex.

 

I comprehend that you (and others) want to place expectations and qualifications upon homosexual people which are unjust. For now, the 'law' is somewhat on your side; I realize but do not accept your point of view. Do YOU comprehend that?!

Even so, I am with the pastor who told his congregation what they needed to hear.

 

That makes zero sense, within the context that most will discuss the issue. Sorry.

 

????? I, OF COURSE, was speaking of the 43 states where gays are demanding that government license and regulate their relationships, because in the other 7 states, they already have it, einstein.

 

doesn't matter.... if your considered legally married in one state, you should be considered married in them all


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Who is "einstein"...???

Anyway, we disagree upon what is pertinent, where the laws are headed and truly germane to the issue, that is apparent.

Perhaps, we'll continue this later.

 

That's where he and others don't 'comprehend' what is important and meaningful to homosexual couples.

In due time, they'll just have to deal with the fact that homosexual people will have the right to marry and be recognized legally in every state.

It's coming.

 

No expectations or qualifications whatsoever. I would expect most homosexuals to have no interest whatsoever in forming a heterosexual couple and becoming man and wife.

 

UUUUHHHH ???? Those 7 states with homosexual marriage, ALL recognize homosexual marriages form other states. I, OF COURSE! was refering to the 43 states that do not recognize homosexual marriage. I bet you actually think you have a point here.

 

You could have fooled me, with all that you're saying here. Oh well, we'll see.

Homosexual couples are interested in being legally married. Not this other BS you keep putting up here.

 

Stand by... the laws are being reviewed and changed as we speak.

 

The energy for a believe should be spent trying to think and act like Jesus. The Word tells us how to do this. I am a sinner and when I do something wrong I usually know immediately….I do not keep doing it over and over. God knows my heart. I do not try to justify sin…even when I do it. Gay lifestyle is sin….and we should recognize it as that.

 

Johnny I think you are terribly wrong. Sin is sin and all sex outside marriage is sin…we are talking about same sex sin here. God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are opposite of sin….because they are so holy. They do not condone sin of any kind because it is out of their nature. So Christians should stand up in kindness….and spread the Word…which was a commandment…not a suggestion…and call sin just what it is…not only in their lives but others. It is being accountable to the Word. We should think and act like Jesus. He told the prostitute to go and sin no more. He said……in kindness DONT DO IT…IT IS WRONG. So for you to say that we should not stand on the scriptures is wrong. To ignore sin…and what it is…is going against God. He said….all sex outside marriage is sin. (Marriage is between one man and one woman)

 

Of course. But I'm certain that far too many people who think they are equipped to minister, don't see themselves as they ought. They lack a great deal of what Christ communicated to this world. I've witnessed and felt the effects of that many times.

Yet, many continue to suck at the same. Why?? I think it is because they think that WORDS are mainly what it takes; when in reality, they must present their lives as an example. Words (even from the Bible) rings out as being 'cheap', when nothing is there to back it up.

I realize that is proper for a Christian.

I can accept that.

Spiritually, that makes sense to me.

No. I don't see being homosexual as a sin. And I certainly cannot understand why so many "Christians" FOCUS upon that as if it is worse than virtually anything else. I used to support certain Christians and others with an aversion to homosexuality... but then came a time where I believe that life revealed to me that people were making WAY TO GREAT AN ISSUE of the same.

I just could NOT accept (whether from the Bible or other Christians) that this was the problem many had interpreted it to be. That, along with seeing homosexual-after-homosexual (including myself), assailed and dehumanized because of some people's biblical beliefs, interpretations and outright bigoted views.

I almost threw out religion/Christianity altogether because of that literal hatred. People wielding the Bible, as if they had to run a spear through every person or thing that was "homosexual". My heart was beaten to a pulp; I became depressed and had to seek therapy; my faith was literally destroyed... that's what I was depressed about.

There was a point where I almost became an atheist. Yet, Jesus still impresses me as a character. The 'church' thing, I want NOTHING to do with now; being around people who view homosexuals in the way that most Christians do, is a horrible thing. I cannot even imagine sitting in there again. It has been around 15 years, since I went regularly to a church; and I don't intend to return.

I'm very conservative about sexual activity, and personally tend to avoid most encounters. Even so, I'm not likely ever going to step into any 'church' or casually volunteer to any Christian group, that I am a homosexual. I don't want to be viewed as some lab-rat, touched by Satan... not ever again.

 

I know. It is what you've been taught and what you believe. I've learned differently than that.

I'm not doing to debate religious beliefs here or likely anywhere about this. I will say that I don't see being homosexual or homosexuality as many Christians do. The contentiousness of arguing the religion over that one specific thing, is something I have not found to be very fruitful; it's on the level of trying to convince a heterosexual to believe they are homosexual.

When you're gay, it is my experience overall, that most Christians can't handle it well. It's a horrible thing to deal with as a homosexual. And surely I'm not the only one who will tell you that (even more candidly as I just did). I don't usually argue the religion surrounding homosexuality with Christians; virtually nothing moves when such a discussion is embarked upon. I do have faith that God can instruct a person's heart; on either side of the contention. But I'm just being honest with you about how contentious things tend to be. I've seen a lot of people hurt by what "Christians" say/do to homosexual people. (It makes me sad to think about it; I cry inside a little bit every time.)

Yes. I can agree. I just think that too many years have passed, for most Christians to read homosexuality properly... as it pertains to the will of God. I believe something has been lost... considering the way most Christians are taught/indoctrinated to feel about homosexual people. Something is wrong, and I am all but certain that even many of the most devout Christians are missing 'something'. You see, I don't get from God... what many of the people are reflecting in their handling of homosexuality and homosexual people. It is chilling to be homosexual, and be subjected to a group of people who have essentially been taught to treat you so 'differently'; you just don't feel fully human. When I stopped going to church, it was like leaving a prison.

Without Christ, we're all doomed. I suppose gay people are even more doomed. (That's the message from the pulpit, IMO.)

But few are apparently equipped to handle homosexuality with grace and compassion. My experiences and those of many others (who are homosexual) have revealed that to me. I WISH that I could tell you something different, but that is reality. Please, check out what I'm saying; it will probably help a lot of people.

I know that concept. Still, I stopped believing the the Bible (in any literal sense)... a long time ago. What I DO still believe (Jesus died for us all), you can't make me let go of. But Lord knows, I'm not very fond of anti-gay Christians at this point. Too much judgement and too much hypocrisy. People whose actions show they hate homosexuals, yet claim to possess the character of Jesus Christ; none of that makes sense to me anymore. And I'm not going to go on another journey of self-hatred and closeted-sexuality... to unfold more of that enigma; it is simply devastating.

And I try. I have seen the love of Jesus working through me, and through others TO me. Or at least I believe that to be the case. And to be fair, certain Christians helped me to retain my faith... because they weren't BEATING on me and my homosexuality. I never expected them to accept my homosexuality, but without skipping a beat, they DID accept ME as a human being. Without going into more detail, I think it saved my life and my faith.

Yes, He did. I am not a gay-whore by any means. I am certainly still gay and have been since I was a boy. I literally DESPISE IT, when people refer to all of that as some "lifestyle"; it is insulting and so non-descriptive of what it means to be homosexual. After all, what would be the "heterosexual lifestyle"? Better yet, when do young people choose to be "straight"? There are so many unanswered aspects, that the Bible (I'm sure) does not answer; and that is what caused me to look elsewhere over the last 20 or so years. I don't bother most Christians with that stuff... it just gets people upset and off-balance period. Most Christian people aren't taught to look very deep into what homosexuality actually entails; they are usually taught certain verses and interpretations of the same. I know... I was there learning the same kind of stuff... suffering as a silent outcast for many years. (The phrase, "Oh God!!" comes to mind there.)

And when it comes to homosexuality or being homosexual, I don't see where arguing the Bible on that helps. Maybe a bi-sexual person is better off trying to work that through. For a full-fledged GAY person... it's torturous (most likely).

I think we should personally stand on the Scriptures; but not stand them on other human beings. Way too much damage has been done by Christians, literally shredding the hearts of people already wounded to a degree that they REALLY DON'T FATHOM. As a boy, then a man who has had great interest in seeking God... I just know that something is WRONG with the way many Christians here in America are handling homosexual people. I cannot place my finger exactly upon it... but the things I told you I've experienced, are the LITE version. I almost wish I could transmit the PAIN and HURT that many misguided Christians have inflicted upon myself and others... but that is not possible. To put it simply, it is as if the devil came dressed in a "Jesus" costume. I want nothing to do with those cruel and unfeeling people, not ever again.

I don't think homosexuality is wrong (in general); but I understand that we will have to disagree on that (even right now).

And that isn't what I believe. We contend right there.

 

Johnny said,

I read the Word…it is the Word I believe…not what anyone else tells me.

WEll this is about religion…because it is about a Christian pastor and his congregation. I have no clue if you have said your a Christian or not. But I don't understand if you are how anyone can deny what God says about sex in the Bible. Being a heterosexual is not a sin if that person does not have sex outside marriage. If a homosexual engages in sex…it is sin. It is the same for both. The issue here is sex and what God blesses and wants His church to believe. It is always important to stand on the Word…even if people do not like what you say.

This issue is about actions..not someones heart certainly not their salvation. All sex is sin outside marriage. We are just focusing on sex between the same sex. It is sin and no different than other sins. The thing is…people don't want to accept what God has said was the standard..because they want to justify what THEY THINK IS RIGHT. I have no clue why anyone certainly a Christian could not handle someone who is gay. That isn't the sin. The sex is sin. I know of a homosexual who loves the Lord and does not live the lifestyle…does not have sex. He is putting God and the love he has for Him above his own desires. You can certainly love someone and not agree with their actions. God loved the prostitute but condemned what she did…and specifically told her to STOP. People are hurtful to one another…and I am sure many people suffering with this are hurt. I had an abortion…I suffered greatly until I accepted the Lord and He turned my life around. But I had to admit my sin….first.

Homosexuals are no different than any other sinner. The Word is timeless and sin never changes. Gods Word today is the same as it was when Jesus walked on earth. If Christians are missing anything it is to love…love them like everyone else but to stand firm not caving in on the Word. Churches today are doing just that…compromising Gods Word…caving in because they are getting pressure from our secular culture.

Yes we are…everyone. They are not doomed more. Jesus said it best….."I am the WAy, the truth and the life…no one comes to the FAther except through Me. Unless you accept the Lord and are born again….you will not have eternal life. That goes for everyone….Jesus did not specify a certain person or group…but for ALL. I believe there is only one sin that keeps one from heaven…denial of Christ.

Love should be a model for everyone especially the Christian so no one should make fun or treat a homosexual any differently than they would treat someone who lusted or committed any other sin.

What we know of Christ comes from the Bible that you say you reject. How can you say He died for us and then reject the writing…that …that came from? I know what you mean about some people hating homosexuals. But that alone is sin…so for anyone to do this…it is not right. However….one can not compromise the Word…just because you feel sorry for someone. My uncle is gay. Love him with all my heart…I adore him….I disagree with his actions….this has no affect on how I treat him. And this goes both ways. Homosexuals should not blame those who disagree with how they live.

Of course no one should beat up on you. I will say this however…I love the Lord more than anyone else and I can't tell you something that I know to be something that is contrary to the scriptures. And no matter how its cut…sex outside marriage is sin. All sex with anyone outside marriage is sin. That does not mean I can't like you and accept you as a friend. But I can't cave in…to sin just to make someone feel better about themselves if its contrary to what God says is right. You have to deal with it. But you can't reject the Bible if your a Christian. You can't pick and choose…what is right and what is wrong. Homosexuality is ok….but prostitution is wrong…and some stealing is ok….and idol worship is wrong. Does not work like that.

 

Johnny said,

I don't get upset…but as I said…I believe the Bible and that it is the Word of God and perfect. I live it and use it to make moral decisions in my life.

And what is a gay-whore?

Why don't you like "lifestyle"? I think of it as meaning…that someone is living as a gay in every sense of the word… Living together and especially sexual activity out of the closet.

You said you look to Christ then said you look elsewhere…you either accept His free gift of salvation or you don't. If you love Him…you do what He says is right. And He lays whats right out in the Bible. Hey my daughter is living with her boyfriend. They are sinning. I love them both…treat them no different than anyone else…but won't cave in…they are sinning…no other way to put it.

Why do you think its torturous? Maybe you know that what your doing is wrong? It hits me that way too. That is why a lot of people don't like the Bible…don't want to read it…they know what it says. When I got my abortion, I could read it either. Sooner or later I had to address it. I don't make any excuses for what I did…but I asked Christ to forgive me. Bisexual is the same as anyone else. Sin is sin…all sex outside marriage is sin. Marriage is between one man and one woman…this is scriptural.

How can you say we should stand on the scriptures….when you admitted you don't. You said you didn't believe the Bible. Your saying two different things here. ?????? Jesus said…to spread the Word…this was not a suggestion it was a COMMAND He gave to believers. We are to help one another stay on the Christian path. And if that means telling someone they are sinning…then that is what we must do…but to do it in love. The thing is…most people when they are confronted don't want to be told what they are doing is wrong. Heck I don't like to hear it…but I love and appreciate when my fellow brothers and sisters remind me and point my sin out. They love me. If you love someone you want to help them. You know I know what you say has truth to it, seriously. I have no idea what it would be like..but homosexuals are not he only group in the country who are treated poorly…handicapped, obese…you name it. People are cruel. But a true Christian who love the Lord would never do this. Are their false Christians…absolutely. I am sorry that you have been shown hatred.

The sex is wrong. There is not one example in the entire Bible where God condones sex outside marriage.

 

The homosexual lifestyle is ONLY a sin if God exists. In order to prove it is a sin, you must prove the existence of God. Have fun trying.

 

And that is such a terrible thing why, exactly?