Perhaps this is why men earn more than women

You ask a very fair question, one which takes some true expertise to answer.

I much prefer to tackle the easier question - which is, what is NOT causing the disparity in men's and women's pay.

We know since self employed people have no evil male boss to discriminate against women, that CANNOT be the reason why self employed women make less than their male counterpart, and that, to ME, is the most important thing I can point out.

Nobody has the right to simply *assume* that just because women earn less than their male counterparts in the workplace where they are actually employed is caused by gender discrimination, and that is all I was trying to prove..

You wan to say that women are being payed less because evil men are screwing them.....?

PROVE it.

 

I assume you are replying to me, try using the quote feature as I then get a message telling me someone has replied.

Firstly your question is a non-starter as I don't and have never said that "women are being payed[sic] less because evil men are screwing them" and no the question I asked does not take "some true expertise to answer.", it is a very simple question -

"The question is why men and women employed in the same position for a business, with the same qualifications, the same level of work are paid different rates.", the answer is that there is gender discrimination.

An even simpler question is do you believe that it is right and ok for women working in the same position in a business as a male, with the same qualifications, and the same level of work to be paid less then their male colleagues, if so why?

You really haven't proven anything except that people who own their own business get different levels of income, that has nothing to do with what an employee is paid. You do know the difference between an employer and employee don't you?

 

Funny how some people never got out of the 1950s.

 

and spend most of their time trying to force everyone else to go back to the 1950's

 

Sorry, Fugazi, it is NOT a simple question to answer. I introduced a fair concept because the independant legal trade is NOT the only trade where this disparity exists and one must ask WHY? that is a fair question.

You have option A or option B or several options that may be at play here causing the economic disparity. That being the case, one must not settle into a singular choice (discrimination) without researching it.

*Maybe* women spread themselves out too thin, being the primary care giver at home. Maybe taking several maternity years off takes its toll on gaining clients. And maybe they just don't push the way aggressive men do. There can be MANY reasons for it.

I'll tell you this in all sincerity, I was a programmer and went into many a government institution, and like all IT departments, there was always a need for a good C++/Java programmer and anyone that fits the bill - male, female, hemophridite - you're going to get PAID and paid the rate or they know you will go elsewhere.

And you know what I found in these IT departments....?? the "go to" guy.... was *always* a GUY.
Men are just too aggressive for the average woman.

One last thought... I saw an advertisement for a consulting/programming job by a government agency and it specified that the consultant must be a woman - which is illegal, BTW. But anyway, the job was never filled, they removed the add, job never done. And you wonder why I think women just don't have that aggressive nature to take on any and all jobs...? Good lord!

1950's, huh? Bullscrit. The attitudes between men and women truly do put women at a disadvantage competing ion the workplace.
And although that is an opinion of mine, it is a very strong one. I've seen plenty. too much to put it all in here.

 

you don't have to go anywhere.

Just don't make the bigoted slur that men discriminate by gender in the workplace, that is wrongful when you know it could be merit based just like it is for men.

Besides "nurturing", you'd be hard pressed to show me an endeavor/job function where men don't perform considerably better than women.

And you talk about women having the same education etc etc... Really???

the two biggest contributors to the world economy and technology *ever* were Bill Gates, who dropped out of Harvard, and Steve Jobs, who dropped out of Reeds college.

You can take your boatload of PH'd power women and keep them because there isn't a one that could hold Gate's / Jobs' jock strap.

You really are missing the big picture, now, aren't you, Fugazi

 

I have to ask, did you not read the question I asked?

"The question is why men and women employed in the same position for a business, with the same qualifications, the same level of work are paid different rates.",

 

And just where have I made any mention of men discriminating by gender in the workplace . .I'll give you a clue, I haven't.

and of course you have the relevant data to show that men "perform considerably better than women." in positions where they are equal in everything apart from their gender .. please do share it.

Anecdotal evidence is not evidence that relates to everything. In return for your Bill Gates & Steve Jobs I'll give you Margaret Thatcher, Dorothy Hodgkin & Marie Curie.. Neither Gates or Jobs would be able to clean the toilet seat of those women.

Not in the slightest, there will always be people who achieve above and beyond others. The question I am asking has nothing to do with pretty much everything you have written. You just seem to be making excuses not to answer what is a very simple question .. Should people be paid the same for doing the same job when all of their attributes are equal despite their gender .. If you answer no then you need to explain why when their attributes are equal except for their gender, they are not, not go off on some tangent.

 

Hi Fugazi.

I thought I addressed that. Maybe I was not clear.

I maintain that men and women can work with the same qualifications, for the same number of hours, in the same workplace.
But men produce more *in my opinion*.


I could do a post, and I may.
List all the uber acievemnts that men have made over the eons. Everything from charting the oceans, exploration, discovering the continents, establishing cities and civilizations, all led by by men.

the sciences: All sciences were devloped by men and they have led in all the sciences for all time, anything from physics, to math, chemistry. alchemy, biology - all sciences always discovered and led by men.

All great structures - like pyramids all over the world, the rhodes colossus, all the way down to homes - designed and built by men.

All agricultrual advancements - led by men. The invention of the wheel, the auto, the plane, the train, the superliners, jets, rockets. All invented by men. Putting a man on the moon, all men at NASA.

Other inventions: The telephone, television cell phone, computer, internet - and the list is so so long - too long for here.


Catching the drift?
Men are aggressive, inventive go-getters, women, followers that have their attention too spread out to advance themselves like the men do.

You know I could do a lot more but here is the bottom line for *now*:

What the hay makes you think that these eons old male attributes suddenly are NOT at work in today's workplace?

Sometimes, I see thinks that are so obvious and it does surprise me when people either ignore it or attempt to rebut it.

So I am curious to see what you think here.

 

Well, now you have me confused.
Do you believe that women are paid less in the workplace because of some unfair manipulation, and if so, then by who?

As you may have seen by now, I did pop the idea that since men clearly lead in all major inventions, all the sciences, etc - then by inference, I have assumed - perhaps you don't, that men are clearly positioned to be more productive in the workplace of today.
We can discuss it.

Fine and dandy.

Actually, one area that women do swimmingly well is in all things "creative". ever notice that?
Look at j.k. Rowling. Would you say she dominates? I would.
Yeah, creativity seems to wear better on a woman, I think. But of course, men will still write more books, not because they are better authors, but because they are more aggressive. My opinion.

Of COURSE people who produce the same should get paid the same.

But you know who it works. Politically correct bean counters look at "occupation" and they look at "wage".
That's ALL they look at. Production is *assumed* to be the same.

And that is my major gripe with the whole thrust of the equal pay movement.

- - - Updated - - -

good posting, fugazi

 

none of the above is relevant as everything you have cited has come from a time when women were considered to be nothing more than chattel and, for the most, not allowed an education.

 

Why does it even have to be a who?
It could be just a cultural or historical thing ie it has always been that way.

In order to discuss it you would have to include the fact that for centuries women were treated as property and not allowed an education beyond a rudimentary level. We can certainly extrapolate from modern times that had women been allowed the same level of education and acceptance your list of great male achievements would probably be a great deal shorter.

Does the fact that women were held back in history mean that they should be treated unequally now .. personal I say no.

Women do well in creative ventures because that was one of the few areas they were allowed to flourish in when they were treated as property.

and herein lies the issue, women who DO produce the same are not being paid the same, in fact they have to work twice as hard to receive the same recognition.

Thank you

 

I'll add to what Fugazi posted ...here's a quote from "About Money" but it's also in accurate history books :

""""Patents are the proof of "ownership" of an invention and only the inventor(s) can apply for a patent. In the past, women were not allowed equal rights of property ownership (patents are a form of intellectual property) and many women patented their inventions under their husband's or father's names. In the past, women were also prevented from receiving the higher education necessary for inventing. """"



From wiki: """During her film career, (Hedy) Lamarr co-invented the technology for spread spectrum and frequency hopping communications with composer George Antheil.[3] This new technology became important to America's military during World War II because it was used in controlling torpedoes. Those inventions have more recently been incorporated into Wi-Fi, CDMA and Bluetooth technology,[4][5][6] and led to her being inducted into the National Inventors Hall of Fame in 2014.[3][7]

Antiquity[edit]

Aemilia (c. 300-363), Gallo-Roman physician
Agamede (12th century BCE), (possibly mythical) physician in Ancient Greece
Aglaonike (2nd century BCE), the first woman astronomer in Ancient Greece
Agnodike (4th century BCE), the first woman physician to practice legally in Athens[1]:2
Arete of Cyrene (5th–4th centuries BCE), natural and moral philosopher, North Africa
Artemisia of Caria (c. 300 BCE), botanist
Aspasia (4th century BCE), philosopher and scientist
Aspasia the Physician (fl. 1st century CE), Greek physician
Cleopatra the Alchemist - wrote the alchemical book, Chrysopoeia, or "gold-making".[2]:99[3]
Diotima of Mantinea (4th century BCE), philosopher and scientist, ancient Greece (sources vary as to her historicity; possibly a fictionalized character based on Aspasia of Miletus)
Enheduanna (c. 2285–2250 BCE), Sumerian/Akkadian astronomer and poet
Hypatia (370–415), mathematician and astronomer, Egypt[1]:137
Lastheneia of Mantinea, (5th century BCE), student of Plato
Mary the Jewess (1st or 2nd century CE), alchemist[2]
Merit Ptah (c. 2700 BCE), Egyptian physician
Peseshet Egyptian physician (Fourth Dynasty)
Pythias of Assos (4th century BCE), marine zoologist
Tapputi-Belatekallim (First mentioned in a clay tablet dating to 2000 BCE), Babylonian perfumer, the first person in history recorded as using a chemical process.[4]
Theano (6th century BCE), philosopher, mathematician and physician

§Middle Ages[edit]

Abella (14th century), Italian physician
Adelle of the Saracens (12th-century), Italian physician.
Adelmota of Carrara (14th-century), Italian physician.
Hildegard of Bingen (1099–1179), German natural philosopher[1]:126
Dorotea Bucca (fl. 1390), Italian professor of medicine
Calrice di Durisio (15th century), Italian physician
Constance Calenda (15th century), Italian surgeon specialising in diseases of the eye[5][6]
Constanza, Italian physician[5]
Jacobina Félicie (fl. 1322), Italian physician
Alessandra Giliani (fl. 131, Italian anatomist
Rebecca de Guarna (14th century), Italian physician[5][6]
Heloise (12th century), French mathematician and physician
Herrad of Landsberg (c.1130–1195), German/French author of the encyclopedia and technological compendium Garden of Delight
Magistra Hersend (floruit 1249–1259) French surgeon
Maria Incarnata, Italian surgeon[6]
Anna Komnene (1083-1153), Greek physician
Lilavati (c. 12th century), daughter featured in Bhāskara II's treatise on mathematics, who solves mathematical exercises
Margarita (14th century), Italian physician[6]
Thomasia de Mattio, Italian physician[6]
Mercuriade (14th century), Italian physician and surgeon[5]
Dame Péronelle (1292-1319), French herbalist
Empress Theodora (500–545), Byzantine philosopher and mathematician
Trota of Salerno (12th century), Italian physician
Walborg and Karin Jota (c. 1350), Swedish officials of the court






Herrad of Landsbert
§16th century[edit]

Sophia Brahe (1556–1643), Danish astronomer and chemist
Isabella Cortese, (fl. 1561), Italian alchemist[7]:99
Loredana Marcello (d. 1572), Venetian botanist
Tarquinia Molza (1542–1617), Italian natural philosopher
Catherine de Parthenay (1554-1631) French mathematician
Elinor Sneshell (fl. 1593), surgeon

§17th century[edit]

Anna Åkerhjelm (1647–1693), Swedish traveller and amateur archeologist.
Ann Baynard (1672-1697) British Natural philosopher
Aphra Behn (1640–1689), British translator of an astronomical work
Elisabeth of Bohemia, Princess Palatine (1618–1680), German natural philosopher
Celia Grillo Borromeo (1684–1777), Italian natural philosopher
Margaret Cavendish (1623–1673), natural philosopher
Marie Crous (fl. 1640), French mathematician
Maria Cunitz (1610–1664), Silesian astronomer
Jeanne Dumée (fl. 1680), French astronomer
Maria Clara Eimmart (1676 - 1707), German astronomer
Eleanor Glanville (1654 – 1709), English entomologist
Elisabeth Hevelius (1647–1693), astronomer, wife of Johannes Hevelius
Maria Sibylla Merian (1647–1717), naturalist[1]:206
Marie Meurdrac (c. 1610–1680), French chemist and alchemist
Elena Cornaro Piscopia (1646–1684), Italian mathematician and the first female PhD
Marguerite de la Sablière (1640?-1693), French natural philosopher
Jane Sharp (fl. 1671), British midwife
Elizabeth Walker (1623 - 1690), British pharmacist






Margaret Cavendish
§18th century[edit]

Maria Gaetana Agnesi (1718–1799), Italian mathematician[1]:1
Geneviève Charlotte d'Arconville (1720-1805) French anatomist
Princess Charlotte of Saxe-Meiningen (1751-1827), German astronomer
Maria Angela Ardinghelli (1728–1825), Italian mathematician and physicist
Sarah Sophia Banks (1744-181, British natural history collector
Giuseppa Barbapiccola (c. 1702–1740), natural philosopher, translator
Laura Bassi (1711–177, Italian physicist[1]:20
Marie Marguerite Bihéron (1719-1795), French anatomist
Jacoba van den Brande (1735-1794), Dutch founder of first all-female science academy
Maria Christina Bruhn (1732–1802), Swedish inventor
Margaret Bryan (c. 1760–1815), British natural philosopher
Elsa Beata Bunge (1734–1819), Swedish botanist
María Andrea Casamayor (1700-1780), Spanish mathematician
Émilie du Châtelet (1706–1749), French mathematician and physicist[1]:52
Maria Medina Coeli (1764–1846), Italian physician.
Jane Colden (1724–1766), American biologist
Maria Dalle Donne (1778–1842), Italian physician
Johanna Eyreinov (fl. 1785), Russian mathematician
Eva Ekeblad (1724–1786), Swedish agronomist
Dorothea Erxleben (1715–1762), German physician
Charlotta Frölich (1698–1770), Swedish agronomist and historian
Elizabeth Fulhame (fl. 1794), British chemist
Lucia Galeazzi Galvani (1743–178, Italian physician
Sophie Germain (1776–1831), elasticity theory, number theory[1]:105
Clelia Durazzo Grimaldi (1760–1830), Italian botanist
Catherine Littlefield Greene (1755–1814), American inventor
Caroline Herschel (1750–184, German-British astronomer[1]:124
Josephine Kablick (1787–1863), Botanist
Christine Kirch (1696–1782), German astronomer
Margaretha Kirch (1703-1744), German astronomer
Maria Margarethe Kirch, (1670–1720), German astronomer[1]:157
Marie Lachapelle (1769-1821), French midwife
Marie-Jeanne de Lalande (1760–1832), French astronomer
Marie Paulze Lavoisier (1758–1836), French chemist and illustrator
Nicole-Reine Lepaute (1723–1792), French astronomer
Elisabeth Christina von Linné (1743–1782), Swedish botanist
Martha Daniell Logan (1704-1779), American horticulturalist
Eliza Lucas (1722–1793), American agronomist
Maria Lullin (1750-1831), Swiss entomologist.
Catharine Macaulay (1731-1791), British social scientist
Anna Morandi Manzolini (1716–1774), Italian physician and anatomist
Sybilla Masters (1675-1720) patent for a corn mill
Maria Petraccini (1759–1791), Italian anatomist and physician
Louise du Pierry (1746– fl. 1807), French astronomer
Marie Anne Victoire Pigeon (1724-1767) French mathematician
Faustina Pignatelli (d. 1785), Italian physicist
Eliza Luca Pinckney (1723–1766) indigo dye pioneer
Cristina Roccati (1732–1797) Italian physics teacher
Lady Hester Stanhope (1776-1839) British archaeologist
Clotilde Tambroni (1758–1817), Italian philologist and linguistic
Geneviève Thiroux d'Arconville (1720-1805), French chemist
Petronella Johanna de Timmerman (1723–1786), Dutch scientist
Wang

 

93% of the nobel prizes that have been won have been won by men

 

White western men that is.

just goes to show that there is still gender and racial discrimination in the world.

What is more interesting is that between 2001 and 2014 there have been 17 women who have won a Nobel prize, more than at any other time since the first one was awarded (1901)