Scotland

Discussion in 'Western Europe' started by Reiver, Nov 9, 2012.

?

Independence for Scotchland

  1. Yah

    64.9%
  2. Nah

    35.1%
  1. cenydd

    cenydd Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Provide an equal settlement of devolution to all of the nations and regions of the UK, rather than the current mess of unequal parliaments with unequal powers for some, nothing for others, and MPs voting on legislation which doesn't effect their constituencies.

    - - - Updated - - -

    No, how (and from where) Scotland is run is a matter for the people of Scotland to decide - that's a very basic principle of democracy.
     
  2. diamond lil

    diamond lil Well-Known Member

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    Quite right, too.

    It's up to Westminster to decide devo max, not Holyrood.
     
  3. Pro-Consul

    Pro-Consul Banned

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    I think that's a very inaccurate analysis and I wasn't asking you.
     
  4. cenydd

    cenydd Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Who is being asked on an open and public discussion forum is irrelevant - that is the basis of a proper federal system for the UK (or anywhere else, for that matter!), and it can't really mean anything much different.
     
  5. Pro-Consul

    Pro-Consul Banned

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    It did when I was asking it but as usual the person I addressed it to couldn't furnish me with the courtesy of an answer.
    No. Federations come in many shapes in sizes and they don't always all share equal powers.
    This is shown throughout history both in the distant past and recent history.
     
  6. munter

    munter New Member

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    Scotland is not an independent country, therefore has no right to secede.

    If so , I could have my house and garden secede, due to 'democracy'

    Scotland breaks the Union in two, creating two weaker countries, and that should not be allowed.
     
  7. cenydd

    cenydd Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So a country can only secede if it has already seceded?! That makes no sense at all. Scotland was an independent country that entered into a union with another country, with both remaining as distinct countries in their own right, with their own legal system, and so on. Of course it has the right to leave that union, if that's what its people choose.
    You could try, if you wish. However, you would not have the resources to survive for very long!
    If Scotland leaves the union because its people no longer believes that the union is in its own best interests, the other party in the union has to decide for itself how it deals with that - it is a then a matter for the people of England, Wales and Northern Ireland. What they do not have the power to do is force another country and nation to be subject to its will - that is simple Imperialism, and that is thankfully no longer a part of what the UK stands for.
     
  8. munter

    munter New Member

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    There is nothing wrong with imperialism when it serves the greater good.

    Let's face it, how many 16 year olds know the difference between a referendum on secession, and a Scotland v. England soccer game? Not many.

    It's letting the populists have their way - this should be blocked for long term reasons.

    give a dog a bone and they'll chew - doesn't mean it's right though
     
  9. Oddquine

    Oddquine Well-Known Member

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    To be fair, most 16-18 year olds at least know that the referendum is not an election for Alex Salmond...which is a darn sight more than any of those talking for the NO Camp appear to do. . So they are obviously more intelligent than most Unionist MPs and MSPs.
     
  10. AlpinLuke

    AlpinLuke Well-Known Member

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    Waiting for the referendum, I have to admit a certain emotional involvement. I have spent time in Scotland and I feel a connection with that land, while I don't know that well England [just passed through London to reach Scotland].

    Anyway, I'm just imaging next Sunday evening, I will be taking my coffee ... noting that the process of the division of Great Britain will be starting and that the map will change ... Scotland will appear again as an independent country.

    Wow. That's a change.

    Sure we have observed similar changes in Europe in the last decades, but the United Kingdom ...

    Whichever will be the result, I can feel the soul of the "flower of Scotland" [I mean the thistle].
     
  11. diamond lil

    diamond lil Well-Known Member

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    So what are the other sections of the Yes campaign offering?
     
  12. smevins

    smevins New Member

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    I would oppose it. I see nothing to suggest that they are financially ready for it.
     
  13. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Well if you lived here and had studied the situation, you would know that is not so. There has been a lot of fearmongering concerning the economy as obviously it is of importance and of course it will also depend on how the country is run and on the resolution with rUK, which at the moment is causing unnecessary panic by pretending it will not be sharing the pound. Interestingly I was reading an article about Ireland's thoughts on Scottish Independence last night and they said with no question "and of course they will have the pound". Not of course that they decide but clearly it is, like for the Scottish Government, a firm belief.
     
  14. diamond lil

    diamond lil Well-Known Member

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    Why do you think rUK is only pretending there will be no currency union? What I means is, what has anyone said to give you reason to believe that a currency union is possible, let alone desirable, from the point of view of the rUK?

    I feel obliged to point out, nobody has suggested iScotland couldn't carry on using the pound. It could use dirham, for example, if it wanted
     
  15. smevins

    smevins New Member

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    Sharing the pound keeps Scotland out of the EU. The Scot economy would be underpinned by only North Sea Revenue which could fluctuate madly and it would not have the funds to weather another banking crisis like has hit them and also small countries before. Instead of "Yeah, see you!!" Scotland should do a more gradual departure the way Canada did.
     
  16. tomfoo13ry

    tomfoo13ry Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Wait, what? What an absurd statement. If Scotland were an independent country then there would be nothing to secede FROM!
     
  17. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Sharing the pound does not keep Scotland out of the EU. Pegging the pound without a reserve was what what one person said, no doubt having been bribed by London first. Yes says this not accurate that there are different criteria needed which we can provide.
    The Scottish economy has plenty besides North Sea oil which will provide around 6b per annum


    Some examples
    Turnover of Life Sciences sector £1.9b
    Manufacturing exports £15.b
    Food and drink turnover around £13b
    Tourism £6b
    Creative industries e.g computer games £5b

    and we do not only have 60% of European oil reserves but are one of the best placed countries for our emerging green energy..so no, that is how we begin, we will be better soon. :)
     
  18. diamond lil

    diamond lil Well-Known Member

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    Such as?
     
  19. RiaRaeb

    RiaRaeb Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I voted no in this poll for entirely selfish reasons. The prospect of being left in England/Wales with a possible Con/Ukip government is not one I wish to contemplate.

    So if it is a Yes vote, budge over Alexa, Pithlochry here I come!
     
  20. diamond lil

    diamond lil Well-Known Member

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    The annoying thing for me is that it won't vote for independence. Not a chance.

    I won't be able to rub our yes voters's noses in it ( which I would so sorely love to be able to do) while they can carry on moaning and complaining about how wonderful Scotland would have been , if only Westminster hadn't bribed everyone.

    Not to the point I would really wish all the mess onto the people of Scotland, though. What a pity Scotland itself can't be divided in a similar way to Ireland.
     
  21. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Survation poll 14 Sept

    http://ukgeneralelection2015.blogspot.co.uk/2014/09/survation-polling-ruk.html
     
  22. RiaRaeb

    RiaRaeb Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What I have been trying to find is a poll of the rest of the country. We know that if Scotland had not been included in the last election, the Tories would have won a slender majority.
    Some Tory MP are calling for the general election to be delayed for 12 months if Scotland votes yes. I would predict a lot of people who did not vote for some kind of proportional representation when they had the chance might very much regret that now.
     
  23. Colonel K

    Colonel K Well-Known Member

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    The latest credible (ICM) poll puts the no vote four points ahead.

    England's plunge to Tory doom is a myth. This link isn't where I first read of the HoC research, but it'll do.

    " ...Moreover, people tend to overplay the English/Scottish power dichotomy, which not only ignores Wales and Northern Ireland but is statistically unjustified. An analysis by the House of Commons showed that only two post-war elections, 1964 and 1974, would have ended differently had Scotland been a separate nation. Tony Blair, the most significant Labour leader in recent history, would still have come to power without Scottish votes, and a similarly charismatic and influential Labour leader could repeat the victory... "

    http://www.newrepublic.com/article/119425/scottish-independence-would-not-guarantee-tory-rule
     
  24. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I would think that it would give UKIP and the Conservatives more votes if Scotland goes for Independence - I have a suspicion even more towards UKIP.

    There is an argument for delaying the election in that that would allow consistency in negotiations if the vote is for Independence and people might need a new one after Independence. Nah, sorry for that. There should of course be an election in 2015! What is worse is the argument to keep Scottish out of an election if the vote is yes.
     
  25. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It is true that most times that Labour has won the election it would have done it without the Scottish vote. However if you look at polls just now even with the Scottish vote it looks like it will be a hung Parliament and the most likely coalition being the Conservatives and UKIP who have the third largest lead. Like it or not England is moving to the right.

    (4 percent is too close to call)
     

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