Scottish Lawmakers Vote In Favor of Independence Referendum.....

The Scots want independence.....but only to be herded by the EU. What say ye?




After voting to stay in the United Kingdom in 2014, Scottish lawmakers voted 69-59 in favor of an independence referendum on Tuesday, planning a return to the European Union.


First Minister Nicola Sturgeon is expected to ask the British Parliament for an outright independence vote sometime next year.


However, Prime Minister Theresa May, who met Sturgeon on Monday, said "now is not the time" for a referendum.


"Today's vote must now be respected," Sturgeon said on Tuesday. "The people of Scotland should have the right to choose between Brexit - possibly a very hard Brexit - or becoming an independent country, able to chart our own course and create a true partnership of equals across these islands.".....snip~


https://townhall.com/tipsheet/justin...endum-n2305397

 

Looks like they want to hold the referendum until they've got the result they need.

 

With the xenophobic English voting to leave the European Union the circumstances upon which the first Scottish referendum was run have changed. If the second independence referendum should fail and the circumstances upon which it was decided should change AGAIN then there should be a third referendum. Scotland should not be ruled from Westminster out of habit.

The European Union is a UNION. Unions are powerful. Union men understand that.

 

It won't happen. I'd bet money on that.

 

I can understand why independence is attractive but not why Scotland would wish to join the EU; The SNP claims to be anti-austerity but want to join an institution committed to austerity and to the undermining of fiscal sovereignty

 

trading one oligarchy for another. Dislike. FREEEEDOMMMM!

 

Since when has the EU or the UN been useful in any way? The EU is the disabled little brother of the incompetent UN. The only thing they managed to do was make george soros rich by bankrupting england.

 

I don’t believe the Scottish people or the SNP does want to re-join the EU were it to become independent, certainly not on the terms the EU would inevitably impose. I think the SNP would try to sell some form of partial membership, in the Common Market but without any restrictions or responsibilities, totally unrealistic of course but unfortunately a pitch that could be politically effective.

It’s worth noting that polls suggest that a lot of Scottish people don’t want a second independence referendum, especially not before the Brexit outcome is clear and support for actual independence remains below 50%. The SNP aren’t really representing the plurality of the Scottish people but are hoping to push through their own policies regardless, somewhat ironic given that’s one of their key (and somewhat justified) complaints about Westminster rule north of the border.

 

In reality, they probably should wait, as you said, as the UK is likely to get a better deal than Scotland would on its own, particularity if Spain had anything to do with it.

 

I fear a major part of the problem is that the SNP doesn’t want the UK to get a good deal because that would strength their position on independence. I believe all of this second referendum talk is entirely about seeking to disrupt the Brexit process as much as they can and I expect to see more of the same over the next couple of years.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case.

I do support the right to self-determination but they just lost a vote recently; give it ten years and have another vote, or even after Brexit is sorted, but to have one now does strike me as undermining the UK and at being sore losers.

Scotland and NI have a right to be ticked off but they will have opportunities to express that at the next general election and any by-elections.

 

They should wait.....and start remembering how the EU dealt with Greece.

 

Even it is a judicial difficult issue to happen, I hope that the Scotsmen do at least. Today the UK delivered the official letter to leave EU in Brussels and serious points show more and more that it will become an own goal of wishful thinking by the Brexit people at least.

it is for example more as ridiculous to think that they can leave the common EU market with goal not to have the hated rules to follow as non EU member, but to have unlimited access for the business further. All who wants to make business in the EU market have to follow EU rules ... so have the Swiss to do, the Norwegians to do and so will the UK have to do! This is the fact, excluded because uncomfortable and there is nothing to discuss about!
So by fact ... the UK loose any ability to make decisions about the rules for business and economic access, but only to follow the rules in future or to stay out!

 

Yeah, but Greece was stupid enough to go along with it.

They are stuck with a currency that is overvalued, with no fiscal tools of their own to use, and an economic policy that will only serve to constrict the economy (with no end in sight).

Their own public voted down a bailout plan and the Greek government accepted a harsher bailout plan. This radical left government sold out it's public for the interest of bankers; these people are scum and a disgrace to leftists (I consider myself a leftist) everywhere.

 

Really?
There went before much wrong why Greece could enter the EURO community at all, because they lied about deficit like mad and no one was willing to see the real and obvious truth to be far over 3% deficit!
This deficit was hidden by incompetent governments in following when making crazy Stock exchange and lending business which crashed in 2008 totally!

So who made BS and lived all the years by wasting money like mad too, money what was not really existing to pay train drivers like being doctors on other countries? No make a tax for private swimming pools to stop water wasting, but letting 3 persons to collect them in complete country = giving a crap about this income?

So what did the EU wrong with Greece, what is your demand the EU should do?

 

Abandon the single currency.

 

I can agree here ... back to the DM in Germany is what I think too.

Why?
One currency is so far OK, but not how it is done and handled since implementation. The EU did not learn out of errors done by the USA with their USD in the past and making the same BS too, until they will learn hard

 

I would tell the EU to take their globalist agenda and go screw themselves.

 

Yeah that is true.....they should have told the EU to stick it where the sun doesn't shine.

 

Exactly, although we have our differences, I think this is a place where conservatives and leftists have common ground.

Any government that claims to be conservative or leftist should be avowedly anti-EU.

 

I agree and when they start talking about a New World Order. I got one for them and they can claim their Trophy for always being Last.....in the Order of Things.

 

It is true that people do not want a Referendum until the details of Brexit are clear and that is also the position of the Scottish Parliament but Westminster is not accurately describing the position of the Scottish people.

http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/2017/03/poll-devastating-blow-for-theresa-may.html

 

The Scottish government/SNP timing has been made perfectly clear - end of 2018. The outcome of the Brexit negotiations won't be clear during the official campaign period for a referendum on that schedule (and unofficial campaigning off the back of news and misinformation about ongoing Brexit negotiations would start as soon as a referendum was announced).

Scotland can't choose between Brexit and independence. Brexit is happening and it will happen long before Scotland could actually become independent regardless of when a referendum was held. Scotland could become independent after Brexit if it wanted but that is notably different to what it is being sold by the SNP. Don't get me wrong, the British government is spinning and lying about this too but the "too" is key. No political grouping comes out smelling of roses here.

 

Nicola has suggested by that time. Her interest is that the deal would be done so we would know what it is, bar the ratifications. The desire for it to be done before the UK leaves the EU is in order that Scotland can seamlessly move on to the next stage. You are wrong though to infer that Nicola is being dogmatic. She said at the SNP Conference, three weeks or so back, that she would be willing to make a reasonable allowance for timing. It is not only the SNP who voted for the second Referendum. The Scottish Greens also did and I think there may have been one or two others. The result was the vote of the Scottish Parliament which yes, the SNP is the largest part of.

Theresa May was confirming last week that they would be. Why do you believe that Scottish people would want misinformation concerning Brexit. But given that you mention such things are you aware of the interference of foreign donors in the Brexit Campaign - https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/01/dark-money-threat-to-uk-elections-integrity

what do you think that does to democracy? I think you should be looking closer to home for skulduggery

You make a good point there. However I think that it probably could be possible for some leeway to be made. German's started a petition on this a few weeks ago.

I don't believe they had any choice. A big song and dance was made by the Westminsterer's and I think Gordon Brown that the only way people could guarantee staying in the EU would be to vote to stay in the UK. Many people voted on this. In particular many people voted to stay in the UK because they consider themselves Internationalists. They were dumbfounded by the result and a great many of them have now changed their mind and believe the way to act that best serves the common good, is to vote for Independence.

After Indyref 2014 the SNP (and the Greens who also support Independence) at least quadrupled it's Membership. Many of those people were old Labour supporters - and many of them were just itching for another indyref - I think it was only two or three months after it that a poll came out with 51% wanting it. During the UK General Election Nicola was being questioned ad infinitum whether she was going to call another Indyref. Eventually she said that the Westminster Election was nothing to do with Independence but in the Scottish the next year, they would put in a clause which allowed them to call one should something happen which changed the structural situation in Scotland, for instance a Yes vote for Brexit when Scotland had voted to stay in the EU. At that time very few people would have put odds on this being so.

The whole Scottish Parliament were aghast at the result of Brexit. For a small while they all seemed of one mind. Nicola went off to Europe to discuss what could be done. She tried to get May round to something which would be acceptable to the people of Scotland - who of course voted far more decisively to stay in than England voted to come out. Nicola had previously asked Cameron if he would make the vote dependent on either all or the majority of the countries in the UK agreeing to it. Cameron said no, though I bet he later regretted that. May apparently did not even acknowledge Nicola's suggestions and then I hear started taunting her that she was too scared to call an Indyref. Not the taunt but the inability of May to compromise for Scotland's needs before doing her Article 50, particularity as May had previously made it clear she was going after a 'hard brexit' left Nicola with no choice.

Now previously I think her, as well as the Greens thought it would be unwise to call a Referendum unless Independence was getting a yes in the polls by about 60% for around 6 months but you know what, I think a hard Brexit and the lack of respect May is showing to the Scottish Parliament might well work much better. I voted for Independence for political reasons last time. The way England is going and likely to be for the foreseeable future - run by the hard right of the Tories sucking up to a Trump America only makes that political interest far far stronger.

By the way, Scotland has loads of ground level blogs working on trying to get a democracy from the bottom up since 2014. They did not shut down. People will be able to find as much of the truth that anyone can find.

 

She is leader of the SNP and Scottish First Minster. If that wasn't official policy, she'd be exceeding her authority in both cases.

I think she was lying.

I think she was lying (are we seeing the pattern yet?)

None of us want misinformation in election campaign but it's what all the politicians and political operators give us regardless. The lies that came from both sides during the EU referendum only prove my point.

By the way, I voted remain, though not for any great love of the EU but mainly because I predicted exactly the kind of mess we're discussing now. The scary thing is that it's only just started.

I'm not convicned that's realistic but if it were it would be part of the negotiation about our relationship with the EU after the UK leaves. That would be UK government negotiations though so the Scottish government burning bridges now wouldn't favour that.

Can we take it as read that when ant politician is quoted like this, I believe they lied.

A Labour government would have been less likely to be pushed in to an EU referendum but there are no guarantees. The Conservative government didn't expect to and Cameron only called the referendum in the expectation of a "Remain" vote to kill the issue for a while (though that's what they said about IndyRef too). Regardless, if Scotland became an independent country at any point, they would not be in the EU so remaining in the UK was their only option to have a chance for continued membership.

I'm a big fan of local democracy. That's why I believe devolution was such a disaster because so much of the power that should have moved from Westminster to local areas has been Holyrood instead and now across the UK all of the push from the top is for regional rather than local government, which tends to be the worst of both worlds IMO.