[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5yTL6KbRU0&feature=related"]1 Jesus & Shroud of Turin - YouTube[/ame] Jesus had long hair. Paul claims that long hair on men is a shame on them. Jesus said feed the hungry. Paul said if a man doesn't work don't let him eat. The Catholic church promotes Paul as an apostle. The Catholic church and evangelicals follow Paul, not Jesus. The majority of the new testament is Paul's writings. Only four disciples have Gospels in the new testament. Eight other disciples gospels were left out of the bible.
Yes, i just watched it. Interesting information in there. I suppose this calls for more tests with more modern equipment. Until than, anything else is conjecture.
Hangover , It is good to see you treading the right hand path . You are absolutely right about your view that Paul hijacked early Christianity and invented a few juicy stories to give the narrative interest for Rome and the Gentiles . As for the Shroud . Computer analysis has shown beyond any reasonable doubt that the face is that of Leonardo .In fact , that statement is very charitable . The chances of it not being Leonardo's face are virtually zero . And both are the exact match of the face used in the Mona Lisa . Many religious nuts will not bother about facts because they "know " the Truth . In this case , they are just being "Flat Earthers" . Smile sweetly at them and privately marvel at the stupidity of people who base their life solely on " faith"
That was what I've heard as well. I didn't watch the video but I've heard the shroud has been repaired multiple times, and that it is believe the sample taken was of one of those repairs rather than of the original. The church seems pretty anti try to prove it though. Would anyone expect any less though?
Had not heard this before, well not definite proof (heard it was thought to be Da Vinci) but it makes sense. The real question (so far as I know still unanswered) is how he did it.
Fingey , The technique is known as Camera Obscura which has apparently been around and documented from at least 400 BC .The technique which led to photography , I gather Rather than me attempt to give details , Wikipedia has a very detailed file on the whole subject . I saw the evidence outlined in a riveting programme on BBC 4 quite recently . It probably was a repeat and therefore difficult to reference for watching /down loading . I think the guiding research light was an American lady scholar .
Finger , Recently written in the Daily Telegraph . My photographic memory is playing up again . Seems it is a Channel 5 documentary , not BBC as I thought. A study of facial features suggests the image on the relic is actually da Vinci's own face which could have been projected into the cloth. The artefact has been regarded by generations of believers as the face of the crucified Jesus who was wrapped in it, but carbon-dating by scientists points to its creation in the Middle Ages. American artist Lillian Schwartz, a graphic consultant at the School of Visual Arts in New York who came to prominence in the 1980s when she matched the face of the Mona Lisa to a Leonardo self-portrait, used computer scans to show that the face on the Shroud has the same dimensions to that of da Vinci. It matched. I'm excited about this, she said. There is no doubt in my mind that the proportions that Leonardo wrote about were used in creating this Shroud's face. The claims is made in a Channel Five documentary, to be shown on Wednesday night, that describes how da Vinci could have scorched his facial features on to the linen of the Shroud using a sculpture of his face and a camera obscura an early photographic device. The programme says the fabric could have been hung over a frame in a blacked-out room and coated it with silver sulphate, a substance readily available in 15th century Italy which would have made it light-sensitive. When the sun's rays passed through a lens in one of the walls, da Vincis facial shape would have been projected on to the material, creating a permanent image. Lynn Picknett, a Shroud researcher and author, said: The faker of the shroud had to be a heretic, someone with no fear of faking Jesus holy redemptive blood. He had to have a grasp of anatomy and he had to have at his fingertips a technology which would completely fool everyone until the 20th century. "He had a hunger to leave something for the future, to make his mark for the future, not just for the sake of art or science but for his ego." Art historian Professor Nicholas Allen, of Nelson Mandela Metropolitan University in South Africa, has called for more tests on the Shroud for the presence of silver sulphate, which causes a reaction with the sun's UV rays. He said: "If you look at the Shroud of Turin as it appears to the naked eye, you see a negative image of a human being, and if you take a photograph of that you produce a positive image of that human being, which means the shroud is acting as a negative. "That in itself is a very good clue that it was made photographically." Radiocarbon dating in 1988 showed the cloth was made between 1260 and 1390. The programme explains the theory that da Vinci's forgery was commissioned to replace an earlier version that was exposed as a poor fake, which had been bought by the powerful Savoy family in 1453 only to disappear for 50 years. When it returned to public view, it was hailed as a genuine relic, and experts say it was actually the artist's convincing replica. American Professor Larissa Tracy, of Longwood University in Virginia, told the programme: "Da Vinci had the necessary skills. He knew enough about anatomy and about the physical muscular structure of the body. Da Vinci had all the skills to create an image like the shroud. If anybody had the capacity to work with camera obscura or early photographic technique, it was Leonardo Da Vinci."
I don't believe it was DaVinci... we tend to associate him with EVERYTHING that came out of the Rennisance. As far as how it was done, mirror obscura, a cadaver, photo-sensitive solution and a burst of sunlight. There are no brush marks on the shroud and the image (front and back) is slightly distorted, as would it be were it a photo image. There is ample evidence that it's a middle age fake, people just don't like to hear that. One more thing to consider- it is possible the shroud is a copy of an older shroud that was disintegrating... there's plenty of accounts of "the face of Jesus" on cloth, not the whole body.
The problem with such as the Shroud (which "I" heard was mis-carbon dated due to the smoke & fire that it was in, and then some of the damage was touched up there after with paint) is that many well-intentioned believers will treat it as a 'holy relic' and focus their attention and 'worship' upon it! It morphs into 'idoltry' as statues can also be the center of the focus of worship, and is very dangerous territory for a Christian (one who shud follow the 'words' of Christ) to get engaged in...
the only time a worshipper of the left will claim that carbon dating is flawed is if it authenticates anything connected with christianity or conservative thought.
Don't you think it best to acquaint yourself with the latest computer evidence before giving us your thoughts on Leonardo plus amateur technical sleuthing wisdom .No cadaver was involved . See experimentation details for facts of methodology and procdure . It doesn't matter whether the shroud is the copy of a previous one , or the fifty first copy .It just reinforces the proposition that the present one is a fake when referenced as the shroud of Jesus .
Well, in all likelihood the Turin shroud is a medieval forgery. So we still dont have any idea what Jesus hairstyle was. I wouldnt lose any sleep over the question either. That vast parts of the church strayed from the teachings of Christ goes without saying. As for Paul: you may find fault with him, but being a capitalistic (*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*) ranting on against welfare programs like right-wing mega-church-preachers such as Hagee do probably is not be one of his faults. These mega-church-preachers tend to quote 2. Thessalonians 3:10 out of context. In 2 Thessalonians the principle that you ought to work if you want to eat is first and furthermost applied to Paul himself and other travelling teachers of Christianity: So next time right-wing televangelists go on a rant about supposedly lazy people ask them what did they do to pay for their kaviar, private jets and luxury villas other than exploiting the gullible congregation members who give them donations.
I guess you, too, have missed out on the Prosperity Gospel....as did all of the Apostles & Disciples during the early church days missed out..they must have been ppl of 'little faith!' Huh?
Paul was a follower of Christ, as I am. Just because Paul preached some things that Weren't recorded in the Gospel doesn't make the two figures contradictory to each other. They where speaking to different audiences.
I am an accomplished artist and a sculptor as well as a physicist, chemist and philosopher; the reason I am saying this is because I can simply look at the spatial qualities of the image on this 'shroud' and without doubt tell you it is not a contact transfer of a face...... No science needed! Place a two dimensional shroud upon a three dimensional face and the image left on the shroud will be elongated to match the curvature of the face.... The image will be twice the width and no longer, not even closely resemble the two dimensional image of a face!!!! Who cares what carbon dating has shown, it's highly irrelevant at a glance!
Who said Jesus had long hair? There is a big difference between the poor and a person who refuse to work. Jesus is in control and Paul was chosen by Jesus. So anyone that has a problem with Paul has a problem with Jesus.
It's not Catholic doctrine, he refers to himself in his letters as an 'apostle.' Such as: 2 Timothy 1:1 This letter is from Paul, chosen by the will of God to be an apostle of Christ Jesus. I have been sent out to tell others about the life he has promised through faith in Christ Jesus. "Apostle" means a·pos·tle n. 1. a. Apostle One of a group made up especially of the 12 disciples chosen by Jesus to preach the gospel. b. A missionary of the early Christian Church. c. A leader of the first Christian mission to a country or region. And when ppl say that he never 'saw' Jesus as the others who traveled with Jesus during His lifetime, He heard a booming audible voice, was blinded, and was sent by the resurrected Jesus to Damascus. They are merely playing a 'gotcha' technicality game! Many believe that Paul was in fact the 12th Apostle picked by Christ, as Matthias picked by the 11 after Christ's death, was never mentioned again in scripture..
Where did you get that from? I guess you don't know the difference between the two. Have you ever heard of the working poor? I have known people who were poor but were not lazy........they worked.....there are people today who are unable to work because they are crippled or were born with limbs missing. Just imagine living in a time when there was no welfare, no social security/pension or savings......the very old that had no children to take care of them, or orphans that are too young to work but old enough to beg or do errands for people would have to depend on the kindness of others. You'll never know what that attitude.
Part 1 of post: Who determines what is "long" for hair? Over the ear, down to the neck, or down the back? I would think that in those days it would be 'down the back.' Razors werent around and most men likely didnt 'shave' (with a knife or whatever) daily as we modern men do (well, not me, I purposely have a mustache & goatee so I can skip a day or two). It doesnt take an expert observer to note that when men have very long, flowing hair, that they carry their head as more feminine---tossing & shaking their head as we see women do with long hair. But Paul often did mention that was what he understood (as the culture of the time). As in the OT, the men who took the 'vow of the Nazarite' (meaning separated or consecrated) were not supposed to (per Wiki from the OT & Jewish writings): * Abstain from alcoholic beverages, and from drinking vinegar (explicitly, "shall separate themselves from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink"; the passage is explicit in stating that the consumption of vinegar by drinking is forbidden, but is silent about consumption by eating, e.g., dipping bread in vinegar) * Refrain from eating or drinking any substance that contains any trace of grapes * Refrain from letting any blade make physical contact with the head so as to shave the head; but to allow the locks of the head's hair to grow. And Jesus was clearly NOT under that vow as He drank wine. And to the 2nd part of your post: We as Christians were told in NT scripture to : help the widows, aliens, and the orphans. Widows lost their source of support; aliens were new to the land and may not be yet established; and orphans as the widows could not fend for themselves. Those who were poor because of themselves, able-bodied and yet would not work, were not a priority per the afore mentioned list. Part 3 of post" You really are reaching in your critique of all things Christian, arent you? Jesus often left His disciples to go off & pray....that was His time of refreshing to get away ...no doubt, His disciples operating as natural-minded men exhausted Him (as He still walked as a mortal man), besides the religious crew of Jewish priests that followed Him around trying to catch Him with a 'gotcha' Paul was acknowledged by Peter in the Epistles as having 'his revelation' and treated Paul as 'special' 2 Peter 3:15-16: 15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. NOTE: The 'unlearned and unstable wrest' sounds like ppl such as this poster!
