The burning house/cliff edge analogy

Is it possible you may be overlooking some logic that does not require that?

 

That's very cynical.

 

Can you (that's a yes or no) summarize the message in the Gospel in two paragraphs?

If not, all that memorization may have done you no good.

 

Perhaps for those who don't actually understand the concept.

I have spent a great deal of my time volunteering in my community and when you observe people selflessly helping others less fortunate than themselves it is evidence that altruism does exist in reality.

 

I'll summarize the message of for you:

You're inherently sinful. The sinful will go to hell because that's what they deserve and heaven wouldn't be such a wonderful place if they were there. There's a Savior who can save you from sin, if you will reach out, and have faith enough to believe that you can be helped with that, and make a concerted effort to turn away from evil.

Pretty simple, basically.

Now, time to use some logic and wisdom, and intellectual honesty.

 

It was by being intellectually honest with myself that made me realize that Christianity was inherently dishonest by promising something that it could not deliver. In all honesty I could neither support it nor convince others to do so given that Christianity is intellectually bankrupt and promotes falsehoods disguised as the "truth".

 

Christianity doesn't only promise to deliver heaven in an afterlife, have you considered that?

Couldn't it hold some reason for you to change that doesn't involve an afterlife?

 

The OT in the Christian bible is an attempt to legitimize Jesus as being the "promised" messiah. However in order to do so a great deal of other things came along for the ride establishing that the biblical god is most definitely a "creation" of the superstitions that existed amongst the Stone Age.

The NT "message" is summarized in John 3:16 and the rest is just embellishment to make it appear as if the "messiah" had magical powers.

 

Which is kind of irrelevant to you unless you're already Jewish.

Jesus didn't come to earth to demonstrate that he had magical powers. That wasn't really part of the message.
In fact if you read the story it shows that he was pretty reluctant to demonstrate supernatural miracles in front of the crowds most of the time.

 

That's an extreme shortened summary. It doesn't answer why those who believe in him will not perish.

 

Don't you believe that if it was true, there would have to be some way to verify that it could deliver without having to wait for an afterlife?

 

At least they're not going the telemarketing route.

Wish the same could be said for our politicians.

 

Applying logic, wisdom and intellectual honesty to what you just wrote gives us the following results;

1. The fallacy of being "inherently sinful" rests entirely upon the bizarre definition of what is "sin". Per your bible it is "sinful" to masturbate! That is like alleging that it is "sinful" to have a normal sex drive. What is actually "sinful" is trying to REPRESS normal sex drives and pervert them for the purposes of inducing GUILT where there should be none whatsoever.

2. The fallacy of heaven and hell is so obviously projected onto volcanoes and fluffy clouds in the blue sky. It doesn't take any great intellect to figure that one out given that it was made up to dupe preschool children.

3. The fallacy of the mythical messiah is cornerstone of Christianity. Too bad that it falls apart when compared to all of the other similar superstitious myths about ancient gods and their spawn cavorting around down here at ground level. Wisdom AKA knowledge of these alternative superstitions are considered to be blasphemy by Christians because they expose the fallacy of their favorite superstition.

4. Making an effort to be good does not require any religion. In spite of all the ranting and raving by preachers the vast majority of atheists are good people who do not engage in "sinful lusts" and "wanton lifestyles". The "evil" they preach about exists primarily in the minds of those preachers.

So let's just take the concept of logic, wisdom and intellectual honesty to an "evil" place and see who ends up on the wrong side of the "sin" ledger?

Two small kids are neighbors with one being brought up in a Christian household and the other in an atheist household. They play together and have fun and consider each other to be best friends.

Then they both reach puberty. In this example both kids are gay and both come to realize that they have very deep feelings of love for each other.

The atheist parent accept that their kid is gay and tell him that they still love him regardless and will always do so.

The Christian parents are SHOCKED to discover this EVIL in their own household. They forbid their kid to ever speak to the kid next door and force him to attend "pray out the gay" sessions.

At 16 the atheist kid is excelling in the arts and looks to have a promising career dealing in antiques.

At 16 the Christian kid is suffering from depression, uses drugs and commits suicide.

What does your logic, wisdom and intellectual honesty tell you about that scenario?

 

Christianity is a Chinese Menu where you only choose the parts you like?

That is inherently dishonest.

 

Christianity is a buffet with more than just one dish.

Of course one of those dishes is the biggest, but just because you can't see it doesn't mean there's not lots else in the buffet.

 

Ok, I'll take you up on that.

How do you VERIFY that Christianity can "deliver" before death?

 

The same analogy applies and that still makes it inherently dishonest.

 

There is no very simple answer for that. Obviously the things we are talking about it delivering in this situation is not an afterlife (but those things might ultimately point towards an afterlife).

But we have to be careful how we define Christianity.

So all you have to do is find out what real Christianity is (which is not necessarily just joining a church) and see if it starts delivering.

If not, then that's obviously not the way you are being directed to go.

 

In other words you can't produce a single thing that is "delivered" prior to death and having been there and done that there is nothing at all to be gained wasting time repeating the same mistake.

 

In other words I can't name exactly what will be delivered to you personally.

I wouldn't encourage you to repeat the same mistake.
but is it possible you might have gone about it in the wrong way?
maybe a church is not what you need to explore this

 

Except you aren't helping them selflessly.

Tell me, why do you help them?

If you can honestly tell me that it is for no reason then I may agree with you.

So why do you help them?

 

Why are you not addressing the Logic, Wisdom and Intellectual Honesty response?

 

And I also never asked you to share that story, you took it upon yourself to share it with me.

That apple doesn't fall far from the tree does it.

Your father did it and you do it.

 

I volunteer because I want to give something back to my community that has provided me with what I have.

 

You are really going out there into something we can have no possible explanation for.

Although I do agree with you there is no way to actually argue that.

Perhaps God created us and left us basically alone after that and we've just gotten lucky.

I simply do not know.