The leasing of Darwin’s Port to the Chinese.

Discussion in 'Australia, NZ, Pacific' started by Dissily Mordentroge, Jun 26, 2019.

Tags:
  1. Sallyally

    Sallyally Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2017
    Messages:
    8,263
    Likes Received:
    14,908
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    Polite.
     
    Bowerbird likes this.
  2. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2016
    Messages:
    1,278
    Likes Received:
    112
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Diversion noted ….as to be expected from Conservatives who can't deal with the issues.

    Hence we have Trump (and no doubt Hastie) even urging a build up of nuclear weapons, to defend "our way of life".

    MAD.

    But so you have a chance to defend your Conservative world view, I repeat a section of my previous post

    <<<"Classical liberalism is based on a misconception of the natural world, and is no doubt a reaction to the "divine Right of kings" from which people of the 'enlightenment' were seeking to escape.

    But …..."imprescriptible natural rights" do not exist in nature, rather they are inventions of the human 'cortex' brain, seat of self-awareness, reason and the concept of 'justice'. Nature is a (pre and post 'cortex') instinctive system of survival of individuals in a predatory competition for scarce resources. IOW, "Rights" do not exist outside of human conception.>>>"
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2019
    LeftRightLeft likes this.
  3. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2016
    Messages:
    8,257
    Likes Received:
    4,760
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    What a load of rubbish, China's adoption of free-market capitalism have been an absolute disaster for them and the rest of the world... we are now all facing a debt crisis of proportions humanity have never seen.... with compliments from China. High rise buildings in Australia are going to cost hundreds of millions if not billions of dollars to fix due to inferior Chinese products (which btw have been shipped and used world wide).. how is this successful, they manipulate the Yuan, they lie about their GDP, they militarise the South China Sea, they have concentration camps, they have a social credit system that gives each citizen a social score and discriminate against anyone who criticises the Communist party or government... this is just the tip of the iceberg and in typical liberal fashion you completely overlook ALL OF THIS.

    You remove YOUR ideological blinkers... because whilst all I've posted are facts ^^^ you in your post have strewn around insults and misrepresentations. blah blah conservatism blah blah blinkers blah blah you this and you that... .stick to the facts. There are good actual reasons to be concerned about China.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2019
    Sallyally likes this.
  4. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2016
    Messages:
    1,278
    Likes Received:
    112
    Trophy Points:
    63
    In the last 2 decades, 400 million Chinese have been lifted into the middle class (even by Western standards). How is that a disaster for the Chinese? And btw the bottom 50% in China have seen their wealth (as % of GDP) increase by much more than the same cohort in the US, which has actually gone backwards in the last 2 decades.

    Oh dear.... your example of 'facts' is based on hopelessly inadequate understanding of causes and effects.
    1. Never have so many people (most of them in China) been lifted out of poverty in such a short time.
    2. The current debt crises, and before this the 1st world rust belt that developed during Asia's post WW2 rise, are due to an erroneous macroeconomic neoliberal economic orthodoxy (see MMT) and inadequate WTO rules around free market competition and tariff protection for underdeveloped nations.

    Your emotional response to my posts in which I highlight Conservatism's misconceptions of reality - in order to explain the general unbalanced western paranoia about China - has prevented you from noting my comments in post 8:

    <<Back to China: yes the Communist ideologues in China are currently denying the citizens a degree of openness and

    free speech, and are enforcing a type of "group think", yet God knows there is plenty of this "groupthink" (eg 'free' market ideology) in the West also>>.

    No doubt, but trade wars and a nuclear arms build up are not the rational responses.
     
  5. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2016
    Messages:
    1,278
    Likes Received:
    112
    Trophy Points:
    63
    In the last 2 decades, 400 million Chinese have been lifted into the middle class (even by Western standards). How is that a disaster for the Chinese? And btw the bottom 50% in China have seen their wealth (as % of GDP) increase by much more than the same cohort in the US, which has actually gone backwards in the last 2 decades.

    Oh dear.... your example of 'facts' is based on hopelessly inadequate understanding of causes and effects.
    1. Never have so many people (most of them in China) been lifted out of poverty in such a short time.
    2, The looming ecological disaster can be averted by transitioning out of filthy fossil immediately - in all nations. (Trump and Morrison are notable recalcitrants
    3. The current debt crises, and before this the 1st world rust belt that developed during Asia's post WW2 rise, are due to an erroneous macroeconomic neoliberal orthodoxy, misplaced IMF policies and inadequate WTO rules.

    Your emotional response to my posts (highlighting Conservatism's misconceptions of reality) has prevented you from noting my comments

    <<yes the Communist ideologues in China are currently denying the citizens a degree of openness and free speech, and are enforcing a type of "group think", yet God knows there is plenty of this "groupthink" (eg 'free' market ideology) in the West also.>>

    No doubt, but trade wars and a nuclear arms race are not the rational response.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
  6. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2016
    Messages:
    8,257
    Likes Received:
    4,760
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    My emotional/annoyed response is partially due to your snark and partially due to someone grossly misinformed holding himself so superior simply because… liberal… and isn’t that typical of a liberal. I’ll ignore your snark and go straight to the issue at hand.

    Let’s have a look at the debt clock
    https://commodity.com/debt-clock/china/

    $ 5,339,408,848,048 (now even worse since I checked it)… and you’re trying to tell me there was a moment in time where the world were in more debt…. Nope… not like this… never like this… not even remotely.

    And how did the oh so ever successful Chinese manage to get us so successfully into this very unsuccessful position?

    They issued loans… lots of loans and every time you issue a loan you create money, they flooded our capital and real estate markets with money, pushing up values to the point where ordinary Australians had to take out massive loans to afford housing. Australia is now on the cusp of a mortgage crisis, thanks to the success of the Chinese. You remember that when you pat them on the back.

    They expropriated land from 65 million Chinese villagers… then issued LGFV - bonds to finance the building of Ghost cities… lots of them, they pushed back the sea and built more ghost cities all empty, where’s your Chinese middle class? Surely the middleclass would be buying up these empty properties, perhaps your Chinese middle class have also now become a ghost middle class and the collapse of their peer 2 peer shadow banking system is partially how that happened.

    Chinese city misses payday as Xi reins in shadow banks
    https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/Chinese-city-misses-payday-as-Xi-reins-in-shadow-banks

    https://asia.nikkei.com/Editor-s-Pi...vernments-come-clean-on-debt-companies-teeter

    China's LGFV debt swap – Shining light on the Shadows
    https://en.nikkoam.com/articles/2015/04/chinas-lgfv-debt-swap-shining-light-on-the-shadows

    Their shadow banking sector is so vast no one really knows how much it owes but estimates are round the $12 Trillion… this sector includes Peer 2 Peer lending and when the successful Chinese tried to clamp down on this market the whole house of cards came tumbling down with your so successful Chinese middle class families losing billions and causing dissent by protesting. The Chinese quickly clamped down on them in their typical Tiananmen fashion and brought in the social score system to make sure everyone accept their newfound beggar status with a smile.

    https://www.scmp.com/news/china/eco...b-state-spending-well-lending-tackle-its-debt

    As the China’s economy deteriorate, they fear social instability to the point where everyone is under a microscope, step out of line and you are social outcast. You listen to Xi Jinping's speeches and almost all of them include the words "social stability"

    China’s Social Credit Check System: A move towards Orwellian Dystopia
    https://countercurrents.org/2019/08...heck-system-a-move-towards-orwellian-dystopia

    Their tech is fake, their science is fake

    https://www.scmp.com/news/china/eco...eality-check-its-industrial-champions-results
    China must stop fooling itself it is a world leader in science and technology, magazine editor says
    https://www.scmp.com/news/china/soc...op-fooling-itself-it-world-leader-science-and

    Their Belt and Road is a disaster, a mix of debt and colonisation. Provide unaffordable loans, seize vital assets. The labour and materials for infrastructure being built in B&R countries all provided by China who benefit from the economic growth usually associated with infrastructure projects… not the country that has to pay back the loans which btw more often than not consist of under the table payments to corrupt officials for the single purpose of selling out their countrymen.

    China’s “debt trap” is even worse than we thought
    https://qz.com/1317234/chinas-debt-trap-in-sri-lanka-is-even-worse-than-we-thought/
    How China Got Sri Lanka to Cough Up a Port
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/25/world/asia/china-sri-lanka-port.html

    China also “successfully” sterilise their minorities… how is this not unacceptable?
    https://www.news.com.au/world/asia/...s/news-story/34d531c19a5bb060881a76ac8b478609

    New business struggle to get off the ground due to "payments" having to be made to corrupt officials just to open your doors… not to mention the monthly/weekly payments these small business people have to make to corrupt officials…. That is the reality of your Chinese middle class
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
    Sallyally likes this.
  7. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2016
    Messages:
    8,257
    Likes Received:
    4,760
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    Senator's like Carr is a security threat to Australia,
    we KNOW this

    and he says a permit system is a gross overreach, he is not doing his job which is to look after Australia's interests... NOT China's interests, shame on him.

    Labor Senator Kim Carr blasts 'Cold War warriors' after call for permits for Chinese scientists
    https://www.canberratimes.com.au/st...fter-call-for-permits-for-chinese-scientists/
     
    Sallyally likes this.
  8. Sallyally

    Sallyally Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2017
    Messages:
    8,263
    Likes Received:
    14,908
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    Well put Witchie.
     
    scarlet witch likes this.
  9. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2016
    Messages:
    1,278
    Likes Received:
    112
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Good.

    Where did I disagree with your concerns about debt? (though I have a very different take on debt than you do). This is what I said about debt:

    <<The current debt crises...........are due to an erroneous (global) macroeconomic neoliberal economic orthodoxy (see MMT for an analysis of the causes of the escalation of debt around the globe]) and inadequate WTO rules around free market competition and tariff protection for underdeveloped nations>>


    Indeed your Chinese debt clock (c. $5 trillion according to your above figure) is very similar the to the even more famous (and feared?, but mostly ignored by conservatives) US debt clock that has been rocketing upward for the last 2 decades, now standing at US$20 trillion.

    Get us into debt? We did it by all ourselves, which is not to say the Chinese didn't join in the fun.

    *re "creating money", if you study MMT, you will see there is a way out of the current global debt crisis, including for Australia. However, the current Neoliberal economic orthodoxy being followed by Philip Lowe, (and everyone else) who thinks governments have to run fiscal surpluses (or at least balanced budgets) is erroneous, and will lead directly into the coming recession in Australia and globally).
    [Note:Orthodox Neoliberalism says governments are subject to the same rules as the private sector, ie government debt must be repaid by a certain date, as with private sector borrowers (ie you and me) which is obviously not correct. eg, the US, Japan, and China have massive *government* debts that do not have to be repaid by a certain date]. It's private debt that is crippling consumers' ability to spend in the West, and now that China is unable to rely on western markets for export income (post GFC and Trump), China itself will soon face this private debt problem. (The latest figures are showing a slowdown in Chinese manufacturing - which is what Trump wants)].

    But you can stay uninformed and keep blaming the Chinese for the debt crisis - your choice.

    The Chinese vehicle market is now the largest in the world. Surely a sign of a flourishing middle class? Plus the government has built a large national highspeed rail network, while Trump has had to shelve his infrastructure plans for lack of public funds. But yes, as I said, the Chinese are not managing the loss of western export income very well, and have not made the transition to an internal services and internal consumption-based economy fast enough.

    .

    Yes, much of this following the loss of export income following the US led CFC (the subprime housing loans mess).

    I agree, not a pretty picture. (To what extent you are ignoring the real development that has occured in China is open to debate; and the OBOR initiative supplies much needed development funds that the west was not interested in investing).

    Meanwhile in the US, entrenched poverty and growing inequality which is even worse than in China, are the reality. And in Australia the crisis of homelessness is unforgivable, a condemnation of us all.

    So, I look dispassionately at cries for "freedom" and "democracy" in Hongkong. Democratic "freedoms" …. to deny a living wage, and public housing to deal with the homelessness crisis for your less able compatriots? Bob Hawke realised a nation like China would need one-party state control for a considerable period, during its rise from agrarian subsistence.

    Like I said, there is too much wrong at home to blame China for our ills.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
  10. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2016
    Messages:
    1,278
    Likes Received:
    112
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Carr is correct: here we are back with the Cold War mentality.

    Because China is now advanced enough to launch manned space flights, and lots more, Conservatives with their precious self-interested "democratic freedoms/way of life" mantra (including homelessness, entrenched poverty and state police raids on whistle blowers exposing our own state and military corruption) need to find a scapegoat for our own nations' shortcomings.
    So, time to learn something about the inadequacies of Conservatism/Classical liberalism/neoliberalism and Libertarianism as a basis for a description of political reality.

    <<<"Classical liberalism is based on a misconception of the natural world, and is no doubt a reaction to the "divine Right of kings" from which people of the 'enlightenment' were seeking to escape.

    But …..."imprescriptible natural rights" do not exist in nature, rather they are inventions of the human 'cortex' brain, seat of self-awareness, reason and the concept of 'justice'. Nature is a (pre and post 'cortex') instinctive system of survival of individuals in a predatory competition for scarce resources. IOW, "Rights" do not exist outside of human conception.>>>"

    Then you might begin to understand why we (and the Chinese people) still don't have an international rules based system, and are reverting - as Carr says - to a Cold War mentality....and MAD.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
  11. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2016
    Messages:
    8,257
    Likes Received:
    4,760
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    You completely remove responsibility from China and place all of it on Australia for keeping the relationship going. You can't send 300 military scientists and pretend they are not going to use your technology against you. To do that is irresponsible, a threat to national security and honestly quite stupid.

    ps the rest of your post is irrelevant and will be ignored
     
  12. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2016
    Messages:
    8,257
    Likes Received:
    4,760
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    so you pretty much agree with me but

    :lol: next time I'll post more sources :rolleyes:

    Essentially the point you made is that China is suppose to have made a successful transition to capitalism and lifted their middle class out of poverty. Reality is quite different, much of China's success is built on debt, lies and corruption... smoke and mirrors. They are facing zombie status, Beijing have once again opened the credit tap and so they simply continue to march on blindly while their export industry is migrating to the rest of SEA.

     
  13. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2016
    Messages:
    1,278
    Likes Received:
    112
    Trophy Points:
    63
    No, I place the responsibility on both sides, ie, Australia AND China, to sign up to an international rules based system.

    Otherwise Conservatives/Nationalists/tribalists/cultural supremacists on both sides will be up to their old tricks of blaming the other side and marching us off to war, as always.


    Yes we are all indeed irrational creatures. We all want prosperity -that's rational -- and yet "national security" (and an arms race) is stated as the overriding concern. How can that be?

    Let me explain it again:

    <<<"Classical liberalism is based on a misconception of the natural world, and is no doubt a reaction to the "divine Right of kings" from which people of the 'enlightenment' were seeking to escape.

    But …..."imprescriptible natural rights" do not exist in nature, rather they are inventions of the human 'cortex' brain, seat of self-awareness, reason and the concept of 'justice'. Nature is a (pre and post 'cortex') instinctive system of survival of individuals in a predatory competition for scarce resources. IOW, "Rights" do not exist outside of human conception.>>>"

    Your choice to remain irrational AND ignorant.
     
  14. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2016
    Messages:
    1,278
    Likes Received:
    112
    Trophy Points:
    63
    All nations desire to achieve prosperity. The Chinese have made remarkable strides in the last 3 decades, and Australia has benefited remarkably from this advance (mainly on the back of iron ore shipments).

    But now the paranoia is setting in, as a possible change in global leadership is appearing on the horizon - in a world without an international rules based system..... see my previous post.

    Hint: the Marxist principle, namely, just and sufficient access to the world's resources, must be the overriding principle for a creative, sustainable human civilisation. Your neoliberal, competitive, profit-seeking principle, by itself, will lead to catastrophe.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
  15. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2016
    Messages:
    8,257
    Likes Received:
    4,760
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    How conveniently you forget that the 300 scientists were connected to the MILITARY.... no need for permits if they weren't MILITARY. You brush over all the reasons why Australia need to exercise caution, the theft of technology, science, the concentration camps, the Orwellian social score system, the militarisation of the South China sea, interference into our politics, just lump it into the ... "oh you're just being paranoid".... completely ignore very important facts... I'm thinking likely you are either Chinese or financially benefit from status quo.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2019
  16. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2016
    Messages:
    8,257
    Likes Received:
    4,760
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    Speak for yourself..I'm very rational

    Prosperity should never override national security, and that is the exact reason why anyone would oppose "caution" ....money and greed - traitors. Most down to earth Australians like myself would burn these bastards at the stake
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2019
    Sallyally likes this.
  17. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2016
    Messages:
    1,278
    Likes Received:
    112
    Trophy Points:
    63
    I'm not forgetting anything.
    I know the cultural supremacists in the US, who think they are entitled to global hegemony forever (even as they preside over entrenched poverty at home) will soon be insisting we allow nuclear missiles in our North.

    [QUOTE/]no need for permits if they weren't MILITARY. You brush over all the reasons why Australia need to exercise caution, the theft of technology, science, the concentration camps, the Orwellian social score system, the militarisation of the South China sea, interference into our politics, just lump it into the ... "oh you're just being paranoid".... completely ignore very important facts... I'm thinking likely you are either Chinese or financially benefit from status quo.[/QUOTE]

    No I'm not Chinese.. OTOH I bet you agree with Morrison's "unfunded empathy" remark re Newstart…..(and the hypocrite claims to be a 'Christian').
     
  18. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2016
    Messages:
    1,278
    Likes Received:
    112
    Trophy Points:
    63
    I admit I'm human - complete with unconscious and conscious motivation. Your "rationiality", like mine, is limited/constrained by many factors.... and variable over time....obviously.

    Better to guarantee national security via an international rules based system; especially remembering Australia's disgraceful self-interested treatment of East Timor ….talk about greed!
     
  19. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2016
    Messages:
    8,257
    Likes Received:
    4,760
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    oh that's interesting...Chinese Australian...? Yes I imagine you would be conflicted and likely see the situation differently. Less hard for me when it comes to China not because I'm not Chinese but because like Australians, South Africans are very individual & free spirits and we guard this privilege fiercely.
     
  20. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2016
    Messages:
    8,257
    Likes Received:
    4,760
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    just saw this,

    well apparently over 90% of Newstart recipients also receive other benefits on that basis yes.. I do agree with him. Besides he's going to prioritise pensioners, the elderly should take preference
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2019
  21. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2016
    Messages:
    1,278
    Likes Received:
    112
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Thanks for clearing this up.

    (And I've noticed your following post......South Africa and Apartheid? Like the OZ white supremacy policy...still alive and well amongst the most ignorant and irrational amongst us).

    I now realise debating you will be like debating an ISIS theologian, since your conviction in your own rationality precludes empirical evidence to the contrary.
    (I suggest you don't watch the news tonight, with Morrison sickeningly prancing around the South Pacific with his two-faced stance on global warming; meanwhile every major city in Europe is being forced to ban filthy fossil cars for health (air quality, particulate) reasons.

    However, I never give up, since I realise your Conservative 'soul', at its base, fears (unconsciously ...get it?) above all that there are not enough resources in the world to guarantee your own comfort …hence your reliance on 'Might is Right', rather than rule of law, to guarantee your own access to these (feared) 'insufficient resources'.

    But I come bearing good news :) .....study MMT - you will see there are sufficient resources both to quickly transition from filthy fossil fuels, and guarantee universal above poverty participation in the economy - including in China.

    Good news?

    https://leftfootforward.org/2018/10...ically-change-how-we-think-about-the-economy/
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2019
  22. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2016
    Messages:
    8,257
    Likes Received:
    4,760
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    Bitterness and prejudice seem to define you... your posts illustrate much assumption, smearing, defiling and vilifying. Your ignorance scattered in-between these remarks. Clearly your knowledge on South Africa and China are limited... you rarely refer to sources and those you do are commented on with bitter sarcasm. I do believe the one thing in common in your understanding on China and South Africa is communism... obvious is your desire for socialist policies. It best you come to terms with the fact Australia is a capitalist country, communism is not welcome here.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2019
  23. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2016
    Messages:
    1,278
    Likes Received:
    112
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Neoliberalism ("trickle down" economics) doesn't work, as everyone is beginning to realise - even Philip Lowe is tearing his hair out in his uncomprehending efforts to avoid a recession in OZ; and Trump is abusing Powell for keeping interest rates too high in the US....

    Neoliberalism is rapidly approaching its use-by date, as you would realise if you had read the MMT article. (I'm not falling for your obsolete capitalist/communist argument, that's ancient history).
     
  24. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2016
    Messages:
    8,257
    Likes Received:
    4,760
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    Yes neoliberalism is a failure.. even Keating jumped ship, communism however is very much alive and kicking, don't forget China is ruled by the communist party and is systematically adopting more oppressive policies as their version/attempt at capitalism fail (because it was never true capitalism)

    In the last 25 years communism have disguised itself as liberal socialism... and this is very evident in South Africa that are on the brink of collapse. The ANC started with liberals ideas... evolved into socialism and now have finally completed the cycle into full communism. What is now becoming more apparent is that they never truly discarded their communist teachings, they were in fact following a systematic plan already in place in 1994 for communism.... today capitalist South Africa is sliding into the abyss with millions of people heading for starvation.

    ^^^ to tie all this in with the thread topic, it is indeed this threat of communism that are the biggest threat to Australia and it comes in the guise of liberal socialism
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2019
  25. m2catter

    m2catter Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2011
    Messages:
    2,795
    Likes Received:
    444
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Big mistake !!!!
    The other mistake is our (servent) relation to the US.
    No one bothers what we want, but we are stupid enough to try to please both major players. Time will tell.....
    Reg.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2019
    Sallyally likes this.

Share This Page