The purpose of Impeachment.

From today's hearings, I think I have a much better understanding of why we impeach a President. And why the framers didn't include any requirement for there to be an actual crime. Only high crimes. Which may or may not be actual crimes. But are acts that only a President has the power to commit.

Some of the discussions the framers had around this matter, as well as the Federalist papers mentioned were quite illuminating.

This is my understanding. Any rational serious correction or precision would be very much welcome. The purpose being to understand what this is about.

Even though, of course, the framers considered that a President committing a crime would be a serious matter, the main purpose of Impeachment is not to punish the President. They left that up to the courts.

Obviously the framers were worried about the President abusing the tremendous power that they hold. But even that was not what seemed to be what was front and foremost in their minds. It seems to me that the main purpose was to avoid having the Republic become a Monarchy. That was their main concern.

If a President commits a crime... let's say they stand in the middle of the street and shoots somebody. That might be a crime. But it does nothing to make him a Monarch. However, if a President engages in bribery, or Treason, or asks "a favor" from a foreign head of state to push a conspiracy theory which would help perpetuate themselves in power, that is what our framers feared most.

This is why elections are not enough. If a President is allowed to use their powers to do anything whatsoever to help in their re-election, it would keep them in power even against the actual will of the majority of the people. That is Monarchy.

So, of course Trump committed crimes. He obstructed justice (as was demonstrated by Mueller), he manipulates witnesses, engages in nepotism, ... all of them things that are illegal. And enough to warrant the removal of a President. But they would not be the acts that would most shock the framers. What Trump did with Zelensky is what would shock them the most. A definite attempt at perpetuating himself in power.

 

Do you really believe Mueller wrote the Mueller report? It is likely he did not even read it. The more I hear, he less I believe anything the democrats put out.

 

Excellent post, I wish to emphasize, you said:

If a President commits a crime... let's say they stand in the middle of the street and shoots somebody. That might be a crime. But it does nothing to make him a Monarch. However, if a President engages in bribery, or Treason, or asks "a favor" from a foreign head of state to push a conspiracy theory which would help perpetuate themselves in power, that is what our framers feared most.

If a Presidential campaign asks for foreign assistance, that is a federal crime.

 

“I would like you to do us a favor, though.”

This is from the transcript of the July 25 phone call between Trump and Zelensky. It was provided by the White House. The following is a quote from Trump.

Good because I· heard you had a prosecutor who· was very good and he was shut down and that's really unfair. A lot of people are talking about that, the way they shut your very good prosecutor down and you had some very bad people involved. Mr. Giuliani is a highly respected man. He was the mayor bf New York City, a great mayor, and I would like him to call you. I will ask him to call you along with the Attorney General.· :Rudy very much knows what's happening and he is a very capable guy. If you could speak to him that would be great. The former ambassador from the United States,· the woman., was bad news and the people she was dealing with in.the Ukraine.were bad news so I jtist want to_let you know that. The other thing, there's a lot of.talk about Biden's son,. that Biden stopped the prosecution and a lot of people want to find out about that so whatever you can do with the Attorney General would be great.Biden went around bragging that he stopped the prosecution so if you ·can look into it ... It sounds horrible to me.

“What you’re describing is a quid pro quo,” asserted a reporter. “We do that all the time,” replied [Trump's chief of staff] Mulvaney. “Did he also mention to me the corruption related to the DNC server? Absolutely. No question about it. But that’s it. That’s why we held up the money … I have news for everybody: Get over it. There’s going to be political influence in foreign policy.” http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/10/mulvaney-ukraine-get-over-it.html

After the July 25 phone call with Zelensky, as he usually does, Trump doubled down on the Biden investigation. On Oct. 3, in a news conference on the White House lawn, he called on Ukraine and China to look into former Vice President Joe Biden and his son Hunter.

“If they were honest about it, they would start a major investigation into the Bidens,” Trump said when asked what he wanted Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelensky to do about the former veep and his son.

“They should investigate the Bidens,” Trump said. “Likewise, China should start an investigation into the Bidens, because what happened in China is just about as bad as what happened with Ukraine.”

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/03/trump-calls-for-ukraine-china-to-investigate-the-bidens.html

Those who argue there is no evidence of Trump's abuse of power -- seeking foreign interference in our Presidential election to his advantage, those who say the evidence is all hearsay are ignoring these statements and the statements he made in the July 25 call.

 

I have zero idea, and care even less than that.

Trump loyalists seem to think that their best defense against the damaging facts against "The Idol" contained in the report is accusing Mueller of not having written it. Who cares?

 

Trump is garbage...both as a president and as a human being.

He may be impeached (almost certainly will)...but almost certainly will not be convicted.

So goes it.

But like you, Golem, there is a history lesson being taught here that I never got when in school those many years ago. I am truly enjoying that part...despite the heavy cost to our Republic.

 

Yes. Agreed. The problem is that interpreting it as a criminal offense is that they would run into the same problems Mueller encountered. Such as quantifying the value of the help (or potential help) to figure out which part of the code was violated.... Things like that. Whereas, as a high crime, the only thing needed is reasonable proof that it was meant to obtain a political advantage to be re-elected. The only requirements being that the act existed (proven) and that only he could have done that thanks to his power (proven) which makes it a "high crime". For example, and this is my understanding from the testimonies. In a quid pro quo case before a court of law the accuser would have the burden of stating if the "quo" was in the form of granting an interview (Sondland's testimony) or to release aid, or the sale of weapons... or what other documents and testimonies say. In a political trial that's not necessary. Because the fact that something was asked... anything that would help perpetuate him in power that is not "the will of the people"... that in and of itself is an attempt to usurp power and become a Monarch (and I don't mean a butterfly ).

 

The purpose of impeachment is to achieve goals that you can’t achieve at the ballot box.

 

And we have a winner..

 

Like Hamilton said paraphrased an impeachment based on partisan power is dangerous. Like both Pelosi said, without bipartisan support impeachment is invalid. Like Nadler said, you can’t take one parties opinion and run with it.

Evidently the dems no longer believe what they stand for.

 

I maters because Muekker has little to no credibility.

 

Not more dangerous than a President extorting a foreign leader demanding bribery to help him perpetuate himself in power.

 

So the public once again doesn't have the right to know about an admitted drunk/ cocaine addict who slept with his dead brothers wife , who made thousands of dollars with a foreign country while his daddy was Vice president?

 

Irrelevant! Read the OP

 

It's a explanation to a post why Trump did what he had to do about hunter, we are supposed to have a transparent government.

 

This is such a stretch and it's not playing well.

Nobody cares.

Most people aren't following it.

 

And, as the framers instructed, he is getting his ass impeached for doing it!

If I were you, I would try to get the tapes or wait for the transcripts of today's depositions before making senseless comments. They were very educational.

 

Some People who are snobs in cities doesn't decide to overturn an election because a president called them out on it.

 

With no proof other than the dem clown Shaw narrative.

 

Trump cares. He barely tweets about anything else now a days.

 

You hope.

 

Yup after bill Clinton getting a blow job in the oval office and was not removed, no one cares anymore about Trump

Happy times in America, the Democrats lowered the bar so low a president could kill a guy on 5th Avenue.

 

Yeah.... because you believe Hillary will be President if he's removed from office by the Senate, right?

 

Who's Bill Clinton? And how would getting a blowjob help him become a Monarch?

 

Seems logical. It is the news of the day.

If Democrats believed their own propaganda they would have impeached trump like 3 times already.

Impeachment is getting really boring.