The Rise and Fall of Carrier Aviation

Discussion in 'Warfare / Military' started by APACHERAT, Jun 8, 2017.

  1. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    This will start out as a FYI thread and lets see where it goes.


     
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  2. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    Once AI improves, carriers are going to be gone except in the form of Helicopter carriers/amphibious ships.

    AI driven UCAV's can stand G's human pilots can't. You could launch a UCAV from a missile tube.
     
  3. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What makes you think that UCAV will not become politically incorrect and outlawed ?

    You know how it works, if it works then it's called obsolete or it's called politically incorrect and becomes illegal.

    Legitimacy and Drones. Investigating the Legality, Morality and Efficacy of UCAV

    http://www.en.ism.uw.edu.pl/new-publication-of-dr-patrycja-grzebyk-and-dr-marek-madej/

    http://www.academia.edu/3547618/A_strategic_moral_and_legal_analysis_of_drone_warfare

     
  4. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Carriers are just too vulnerable and excessively expensive, and long range aircraft are not all that more expensive.

    In older times the limiting issue was fuel weight, but today aircraft are lighter weight and targeting has more precision so that also means aircraft do not need to carry as much.
    Advances in technology have also made individual aircraft much more effective, but also much more expensive, so fuel costs have become almost a non-factor in comparison.
     
  5. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    The moral debate about drones won't go anywhere. There's no functional difference between a plane dropping a bomb with a pilot on board and one where the pilot is elsewhere.
     
  6. Mrbsct

    Mrbsct Active Member

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    "The Carrier obsolete" is nothing but hot garbage nonsense. If it was the case China wouldn't even bother building carriers.
     
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  7. yiostheoy

    yiostheoy Well-Known Member

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    There are only 2 kinds of ships:

    1 - submarines

    2 - targets for submarines.
     
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  8. Mrbsct

    Mrbsct Active Member

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    The Submarine has to fairly stealthy. US subs like the Seawolf can get under 5 km of sonar without detection. The Chinese and Russian subs are fairly noisy since they haven't improved much since the Cold War. Of course it is typical CsG will be escorted by their submarines and have helos to guard a perimeter.
     
  9. Battle3

    Battle3 Well-Known Member

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    AI is a long way from replacing all manned aircraft. Aircraft like the UCAV are good for preplanned missions because they can fly (take risks) like a manned aircraft would not, and they have a small degree of flexibility. But they are a long, long way from taking on the fighter role in which they have to engage the unpredictable human enemy (or enemies).

    G's are not the issue. The issue is that AI is not actually intelligent, the vehicle is not actually observing, thinking, and responding appropriately. The AI in all its forms (machine learning, fuzzy logic, etc) is essentially a giant program of if-then statements, its not actually coded that way but functionally that's a good analogy. If the programmer does not provide a response, or provides the wrong response path, the "AI" fails. Present the AI with something the programmer did not plan for, and the AI dies. And you know what happens in war - the plan looks good until it meets the enemy.
     
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  10. yiostheoy

    yiostheoy Well-Known Member

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    Technically the US A-boats can guard Carriers fairly well, agreed.

    Chinese air power is much more formidable in the South China Sea against surface ships.
     
  11. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I concur, right now the U.S. Navy only plans to use it's MQ-25 Stingray as an air refueling tanker. -> http://www.scout.com/military/warrior/story/1696720-carrier-launched-drones-to-change-navy-attack

    UCAV as a fighter ???

    A fighter jock has to react to threats and respond in a fraction of a second.

    The problem with all UAV's is latency, the time an UAV sees or detects something, relays that information back to who's in control of flying the UAV and his reaction and transmitting back to the UAV on what action needs to be taken.

    Every wonder why the Predator UAV's have a high crash rate mostly during landings and take offs ? A 2 second latency from the time an UAV pilot on the ground moves the joystick until the Predator responds.

    [​IMG]

    https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/21352/how-do-drones-overcome-latency
     
  12. Strasser

    Strasser Banned

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    Carriers are the most effective multi-role ships on the seas; they can do a wide variety of emergency missions, both civilian and military, and very effectively, and stay out for months, and not just launching aircraft. It would be a huge mistake to get rid of them. Mobile bases are a great asset. As I've said before, if people don't like the costs, then address the real problems with that, our own corruption. Singapore and other countries do quite well and become far better off financially when they launched determined long term anti-corruption campaigns; they're at #8 on the list of least corrupt countries, we're way down at #18, a disgrace.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2017
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  13. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

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    G forces are not everything or even most important when it comes to combat maneuvering.
     
  14. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    Except if you can take extremely high G-forces, you can do extreme maneuvers.
     
  15. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

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    Not necessarily. The Mig-25 Foxbat is capable of some great manuevers despite the air frame having a mere 3 G limit.
     
  16. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    The MiG-25 has the maneuverability of a brick. It's a high speed, straight line interceptor.
     
  17. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

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    As we say in football, speed covers a multitude of sins. High speed makes the Foxbat very hard to take down with an air to air or SAM due to the fact all it has to do is go full burner and can often out range the missiles.

    Maneuverability is more than just turning. At any rate things like turn are highly dependent on wing surface area available as well.
     
  18. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    It *used to be* hard to take down. Modern SAMs and AAMs are considerably faster and some are longer ranged than the distance a MiG-25 can cover on full afterburner before it drains its tank.
     
  19. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

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    SAMs and AAMs never work as well as advertised.
     
  20. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    They work well enough. Hell, the *Iranians* were able to bring down MiG-25's.
     
  21. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

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    Historically SAM performance has depended more on the operators competence and proper strategies rather than missile capabilities.
     
  22. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    And that changed around the same time as the Patriot, SA-10/20/S-400, Tor-M1, etc.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2017
  23. Mrbsct

    Mrbsct Active Member

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    MiG-25 can only pull 4.5 G while most aircraft can go 9 G. The MiG-25 has the advantage of being fast, at Mach 3 v Mach 2 for most aircraft. Overall IMO MiG-25 should be just as hard to hit since it flies higher than most aircraft and speed alone without manuvering is often to shake off a missile.
     
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  24. Deckel

    Deckel Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    We still have a lot of missiles and they are getting better and better every generation.
     

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