The Rise of the Far Right In Europe

All the things you consider as a solid culture, today, were created from multiple cultures in the past. Nations, themselves, are the consolidation of a large group of cultures, and there is still a distinction of cultures within the nation. For instance, in the US, at the very basic level, you have the East Coast, the West Coast, the Mid-West, and the South. The cultures are even more further sub-divided down to the states, more so down to regions within that state, and in New York City, at least, there is a different culture as you move from borough ti borough. It's your definition of multiculturalism that is poor. What you are arguing is not against different cultures, but immigrants. Just immigrants, and a specific group of immigrants I imagine.

Multiculturalism as an aid to a one-world government is probably just as effective as the internet. Maybe less, but will you campaign against the internet? Technology?

So you're countries government has chosen to side with the immigrants instead of you? I mean, do they live in better conditions, receive better aid, resources, have better jobs, earn more than the average native of your country? How many immigrants are in your countries government, or do they have positions of power in economy or law enforcement? Are they really influential or something? I'm really trying to understand so I was asking for specific examples. Like, what percentage of your countries budget goes to immigrants? Or how much crime was present in your country as compared to before they were there? And do you think there is an intentional intent of your government to bring in immigrants and dilute national sovereignty- which pretty much means selling your country off to a world hegemony- or is it an intrigue from the immigrants original nation?

I understand you when you say they are a threat, and aside from immigrants simply entering your country, I was wondering what's the basis, the specifics. Aside from the fact that they have increased in numbers, I was wondering what are the considerable negatives that have come of their arrival.

 

The issue is political correctness and "Rights to Freedoms" ratio. When the rights of one infringe on the freedoms of another they cease being rights and become privileges. When the freedoms of one infringe on the rights of another they are not freedoms they are advantages.

In america I have the right to own a home and live in the area of my choosing. People have a right to travel the public roads and can drive by my home. They have the freedom to play music as loud as they like and whatever music they like with an exhaust system as loud as their music.

Their freedoms infringe on my rights.

 

Which freedoms and rights have been infringed on you by immigrants, and what privilege's do they exercise over you? To be honest, I have seen the effects of Gloablization creeping in to the American society, but it was more on the high-class end, such as the inflow of foreign banks and businesses into America, like that Trans-Texas Highway event where the US and the government of the State of Texas was actually going to give the OK for a company based in Spain to build a highway that would cut right through Texas. It would also give jurisdiction over the area surrounding that highway to the company. The Texas people, in the end, were able to defeat it, but they had to rally against it. That's scary. That shows that the federal government nor the state government supproted their own people, but economic interests and foreign ones at that.

Immigrants. They are poorer than our poor, more often than not. They have less rights than us when they come here, they get paid worse, they have virtually no legal protection...they are truly in the wild here, subject to any kind of abuse. I never imagined that they would ever be in a position to be called privileged.

 

You entire argument is based on emotion. And what harm? Increased crime. Higher taxation and medical costs. Undue pressures on the education system... Really what benefit do they bring other than allowing people to complain about them taking jobs while they collect welfare with no intention of getting a job themselves. Evert nation had the same chances but they became more corrupt than others. Poor is a matter of limited resources being fought over by a population that exceeds those limits.

 

The reason why European countries promote multiculturalism is to destroy national identities so that they can replace them with a new european identity (which is exactly what the soviet union did)

As far as immigrants getting better treatment, immigrants are favored in public jobs and as far as i know there are certain programs to help newcomers more than natives (although, i dont really care about that).

The biggest issue at the moment is crime and other social problems but todays social problems are tomorrows political problems. I dont want my country to fracture along ethnic lines politically which is sure to happen once the immigrant population, specifically the muslim population, grows big enough.

 

Going through this thread, you seem genuinely surprised that multiculturalism and immigration could make that big a difference, but unlike the US, which has a history of immigration and has had constantly shifting ethnic group numbers throughout it's history, Europeans are facing for the first time the effects of mass immigration, even though it's been going on for decades. It comes from two sources, the latest Euro fad, the Euro Zone, and more importantly, from the Islamic countries. In the US, before multiculturalism became the dominate ideology, We forced assimilation on newcomers, using the schools and societal pressure, to mold new immigrants into Americans. I'm guessing the Europeans just thought it would happen naturally and it did for some, for a while. But when the numbers of an outside group reach critical mass, they discover they can stretch political muscle, as that group, not as assimilated members of society.

In 1965, no American politician was interested in the Hispanic vote, or Hispanic interests, because people from latin countries either assimilated or were so far down the bottom (agricultural workers), that they didn't make that much difference. Now they are a special interest that has it's own agenda and needs to be courted. But at least Hispanics derive from Western countries. Muslim immigrants are totally non Western in religion and outlook and with the declining European birthrates and heavy influx of immigrants, Europeans are seeing the ethnic mix of their countries being altered in their lifetimes. Now what do you think will happen when Muslims become 30 to 40 percent of say... the UK? Muslim political parties and a demands for accommodation since by the time Muslims reach those numbers, they will be the dominate religion since Christianity has fallen out of favor.

So you can imagine the rise of the right has to do with people not wishing for their countries to become Islamic nations in a generation or two. Of course, the birth rate problem means it's already too late. The only thing they can do is slow the inevitable. But before that, if history is any guide, you'll get civil war first, once the native populations come to the realization that it's already too late. I think Europe is enjoying if last best days as a Western enclave.

 

Solution is have more sex! Make gay illegal and have sex with the islamic women breeding the hate out of them!

 

I understand the general rhetoric of the argument that mmigrants effect these areas, but by how much. I know people say they are degrading the country, but to what degree, numbers wise? It would be the surest way to make sure you weren't being led around by your emotions on the issue.

Yeah, they do take jobs, and in a time where it is hard to employ your own native population, it certainly would be a problem. But I wouldn't target the immigrants for my hostility. The reason why immigrants come in is the same reason why jobs go out. The "job-makers" of the country actively seek them out. They work for less, and they work without benefits. It's not as much that they are taking all your jobs, it's they are being handed all your jobs by the employers.

Well, I hope the best comes out of your situation over there in any case. I don't want to dig into your business too much, but I did see a video that was a little enlightening on the subject...

[video=youtube;AfLsj7FNVtE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfLsj7FNVtE&list=FLiqt4KnHSDBFqcCJ2ZwIsWQ[/video]

 

Where do you live? Here it is hard for a white or black kid to get the Pre-K they may need because the government says they must take the children of illegals! The cost is outrageous both in terms of money and effectiveness. When I go to the store and their is a BUS load of immigrants and I need gas and only have cash on me it can take me 30 min to get out!

Now look at these costs and the budget deficits! Now look at the people sitting back on unemployment! No real tax revenue, increased expenditures as well. If the Americans were working...

 

Yeah, I figured that's what was the core of the issue here. I wasn't surprised by the effects of immigration as much as I was the hostility I sensed coming out of it.

While I'd side with immigration control, I hope this doesn't spill over into some sort of violent conflict. It seems all to likely that immigrants might become the convenient punch-pillow for the stresses of European society.

I like your explanation the best, also.

 

Hmmm...

There's no comparison between the money spent on immigrants and the money spent on the overall population of North Carolina. I'm not doubting your post or your convictions, but for the study itself, it just points to big numbers, which might not look so big when compared with the overall budget.

When I was in Virginia, I saw a little of the effects of immigration. I lived in an apartment complex for about two or three years. At the beginning, it was mostly Americans, and at the end, mostly immigrants. But there was no sense of over-crowding and they were really cool people. My neighbor even brought over food every holiday. There was no rise in crime, no Ill feelings whatsoever, and they are handy as hell.

I do want to ask you something though. Where do you live, and do you think the American immigration is the result of NATO, or what? If immigration is a problem where do you think we have to aim to solve it.? What is behind it?

 

Those expenditures and close to the deficit. Now that may not mean much but the fact is it would make a big difference if illegals were not here.

What is behind it? SOSDD! People seem to think that jobs are in endless supply and money grows on trees. It is easy to set standards on how to spend the money of the people while you vote yourself raises and fly all over the world. The government has failed the people.

Oh I live in North Carolina and our issues come from the government. Paying unemployment while we have illegals filling jobs is a big issue. It increases expenditures by 2x or more while decreasing some state revenues and payroll tax revenue. It really does not have much effect on the federal tax but it hurts the states.

 

What is SOSDD?

You know, there was an interesting study about Saudi Arabia's problems with the great gap between the poorest and richest members of the nation. They said that because the Saudi aristocracy receives so much money from it's oil revenues, t does not need the money from the people to operate and can disregard them at a whim. It was the economy that undermined the voice of the people. In America, it's no secret that the interests of the general public compete with economic interests. It could be the same exact thing. Why else would they allow so many illegals in, if not to provide cheap labor for the people who hire them, to the detriment of American labor?

 

I'd agree. The past is safe because it's known. It's a childish regression fantasy to think that the past was a better place. It probably goes back to the core of every individual when they are going through tough times, to want to go back to the safety of childhood. I think something similar is at work here. The funny thing about it is that if you really ask someone to engage their thinking, rather than their emotions, and think of a past time that was golden they simply can't do so. It's fantasy.

If Europe didn't have such massive economic problems none of this would see the light of day. Europe's politicians need to get a grip and realise that their current austerity approach is not working.

 

So they're already predisposed to a right wing point of view?

 

They react to fake Leftists who are agents of the Right Wing assigned to provoke that reaction. Completing the deception, Limousine Liberals claim they hate Capitalism in order to trick those they purposely disgust into supporting Right Wing economics. It is similar to the Bad Cop, Good Cop act used to trick criminals into confessing.

 

The US itself is an example, possibly the preeminent example, of how immigration can build a country. Sure North America is blessed with resources but the United States itself has such an interesting and varied pattern of European settlement that to look at it over its timeline is a lesson in how diversity can work to produce something very powerful.

Canada probably offers a lesson in contemporary national cohesion built from the waves of immigrants but for an historical lesson you can't go past the US. I've seen the monuments at The Alamo and at Little Big Horn, for example and the names and origins of the people who were there are like a microcosm of historical US society.

Europe is going through economic horrors at the moment and that's why the locals are ticked off when ferriners come in. As I said before, their politicians need to get their boots on and do some work.

 

The economic situation certainly isnt helping but ultimately this has nothing to do with economics.

Its a clash of 2 world views that can not coexist - and the weaker one will die.

 

This is what I feared. I doubt there is any considerable economic footprint imposed on the host country to the point of imbalance, and I doubt that these immigrants carry any hostile intent to a new land, but hope as most people do when moving from an old place to a new one. I doubt there has even been an honest effort to actually talk to the immigrants and actually find out their world view, their desires, and their ambitions. It likely boils down to the mass majority of people who find credibility in the idea that they will somehow be bred out of existence and that the immigration of people looking for a better life is actually the invasion of a people bent on destroying their own.

And there seems to be an undertone of violent repercussion in all of t. Indeed, from what I have been reading, there already has been a wave of hate crimes and violence against immigrants throughout Europe, particularly, Muslim's, because I suppose darker immigrants must be more of a danger than lighter ones.

 

Well I think we know which world view is the strong horse and which is the weak one.

Pertinent article from the Wall Street Journal today, written by Lars Hedegaard, who survived an assassination attempt. The Assassin at the Door

I particularly liked this line: When I was a young Marxist during the 1960s and '70s, these opinions used to be described as characteristic of the political left. Nowadays the defenders of such positions are routinely labeled as right-wing or as belonging to the "extreme right." Meanwhile, what used to be the left is cozying up to holy men who want adulterous women to be stoned, homosexuals to be hanged, apostates from Islam to be killed, and 1,200-year-old laws emanating from somewhere in the Arabian desert to replace our free constitutions.

 

"Heard " ? You mean in the media ?

Is there really a rise in controversy? or is the media just taking little isolated incidences, which have always happened from time to time, and playing it up?

for some obscure political purpose, which the media is so often fond of doing

 

"Same old (*)(*)(*)(*) different day"

And the rest of your post? I am a strong proponent of market based wages and no benefits if one does not work. There is no reason to have such an influx of immigrants coming for work when we have so many unemployed.

 

While I give my sympathy for the incident, a man who spoke clear Danish with no accent seems unlikely to be an immigrant. I also can't see his actions as the extent of the immigrant community. I mean, to think immigrants come all that way- from war or social strife- to declare war in the place they are fleeing to? The reasoning behind it seems odd.

 

A child of immigrants most likely.

I have to say though, you betray your western mind set with your statement, "to think immigrants come all that way- from war or social strife- to declare war in the place they are fleeing to? The reasoning behind it seems odd."

Yes. Quite odd indeed. How to explain it? Even though we've seen this repeated in our country several times? And Muslims as a general rule seem much more integrated in the US than the ones in Europe*. But we've had Somali refugees go back to Somalia to join Islamic terrorist groups. What about the guy who set off the car bomb in Times Square? He was an immigrant and a US citizen.

Yes it's odd, but not at all uncommon.




* But they are much smaller percentage of the US population than in most European nations. Of course when that changes...

 

This is what I feared. I doubt there is any considerable economic footprint imposed on the host country to the point of imbalance,

So you have no knowledge of Europe and yet 'you doubt'. Actually immigration has put things like schools and health provision massiveley under strain as well as filling our prisons. It is costing a fortune


and I doubt that these immigrants carry any hostile intent to a new land,

Muslim come with incredible hatred of us. They come to join their fellow Muslims to live in Ghettos subsidised by the state.

Reallyy ? actually there have been endless attempts -they come for the money. Some come to work others come to sponge.

With good evidence

Then you suppose wrong. Muslims are the primary agressors. It is because they hate us that we are against them. We don;t have such problems with hindus and Sikhs who are the same colour

You are a typical ideologue seeing everything through your ideological lens.