The Taliban have WON in Afghanistan... (really?)

Yours would be closest to the correct answer, but there are differences that are nonetheless significant. First, if you compare the political liberties and atmosphere in Iran today to the days of the Shah, there is no comparison. Iran is far more open and tolerant in this regard and it is simply a lie to try to suggest otherwise. On the other hand, if you expand the issue to cover more than political liberties and include social freedoms, then the opposite would be true. Social liberties during the time of the Shah weren't constrained by governmental action for the most part. While the picture of what happens in Iran today in this regard is also full of falsehoods and misleading portraits, ultimately it is true that the current regime is committed to an ideology that necessarily tries to inhibit and suppress what it would regard as "Western culture" (never mind those efforts have largely failed and the proportion of the population that is in fact westernized has grown by leaps and bounds). Second, the practices of the current regime and judgments on it would yield very different answers depending on which period one focuses on. The early years of a revolution are typically marked by extremism and this was the case in Iran as well. In those early years, and continuing until the end of the Iran-Iraq war, the practices of the regime would indeed make the Shah's reign look very good in comparison. But that phase began to fade and eventually, the current climate in Iran is not at all (in any way) reminiscent of those early years -- or the propaganda which feeds on the practices in those early years to feed a false picture of Iran today. But similarly, but in reverse, the practices during the long, 37 year, reign of the Shah weren't always the same either. In the early years of the Shah's reign, until the coup against the government of Dr. Mossadegh, the Shah was a constitutional monarch and Iran had a relatively open form of government. The Shah assumed more dictatorial powers afterwards, but it wasn't really until the 1970s when the rise in oil prices and the Shah's long reign combined to feed into the Shah's megalomania and unwillingness to tolerate any form of contrary opinion or view. In those years, Iran began to resemble a police state in some ways, but even then, everything is relative. The number of political prisoners wasn't in the hundreds of thousands or even tens of thousands. The number was more around 2,500. And the number of people who were actually executed was much lower; mostly a handful of people. After the revolution, and until the end of the Iran-Iraq war, on the other hand, we did have millions of Iranians emigrate from Iran and tens of thousands who found themselves in prison and several thousand who were executed. The worst phase of the current regime immediately after the revolution left many more victims by far than the worst during the Shah's regime. Today, however, and in the past 20 years, things have been very different. Which is why most of the stories of repression in Iran today, are actually quite false or misleading. Today, and for the past 20 years or so, Iran is simply not the country many in the West believe it to be.

 

You wish

 

No, I wish you were a stand-up & honest guy able to understand real life.

 

A very poor apology for 18 years of wasted lives and treasure. We got Bin Laden in Pakistan - how does this somehow justify 18 years in Afghanistan ? Should we now go to war with Pakistan for 18 years.

We punished Al Qaeda in Afghanistan within the first few months. How does this justify the other 18 years of wasted lives and treasure in Afghanistan. The main group that we fight in Afghanistan is the Taliban - a group that had nothing to do with 911.

Regardless - this whole "Al Qaeda" / "war on Terror" narrative is propaganda nonsense to begin with. Perhaps there was a time right after 911 where we were fighting Al Qaeda but since at least 2011 - and arguably much further back than this - we have been Arming and supporting Al Qaeda - and when not doing that - creating new spaces for them to inhabit.

You have been drinking too much State Propaganda my friend.

 

The missing to kill him was planned and executed from our bases in Afghanistan.

You argue for the sake of arguing. I am not trying to justify it. Besides, I even said 90% of the time we were not even trying, so most of out presence there has been on par with S.Korea, Germany and Japan, and hundreds of other based we have saturating the planet.

 

Now you are projecting. You are the one arguing for the sake of arguing. I am arguing for the sake of stopping this waste of lives and treasure. You are arguing for the sake of what ? - to prop up the false narratives used to justify this waste.

Our presence in Afghanistan is nothing like our presence in S.Korea, Germany and Japan.

 

You ask some good questions, ones that no one has even thought about. You're right ... there is no justification for any of it.

 

I am not arguing. I stopped by to say "We got Bin Laden, and drove Al Qaeda into the caves. Its not much, but its something. I am sure we hoped for more, but 90% of the time we were not even trying."

This statement triggered something in you, and you started arguing.

We have minimal presence there and most of the time they dont do much, just like those serving in Japan, S.Korea and Germany.

 

On every forum there is someone who talks about what a swell place Iran is and how benign their government is. They are a state sponsor of terrorism and are involved in every conflict in the region today. They spilled a lot of American blood from the Marine barracks to Iraq and they still preach death to Israel and time to time death to the US. They are an Islamic theocracy and whatever freedom they may have at home can and will be squashed if that is threatened.

 

From time to time some are killed by hostile fire and that doesn't happen in Japan or S Korea or Germany.

 

Time to time.....Is it hard to admit our guys are not doing much there anymore? They have had their peak times, like in 2010/2011, but we are down to skeleton crew by now.

 

You are arguing against the premise that the war in Afghanistan is a waste money and lives - arguing by grasping at some very weak straws. Your 90% of the time we were not trying comment adds nothing to your argument. I don't care what % of trying we were doing .. these regime change wars are costing us Trillions of dollars, killing our soldiers and wounding many more - both physically and psychologically.

My correcting your flaw claims - in a debate forum - I suppose one could say was "triggered" - I do not like fallacy and falsehood - especially when such claims are being used to justify the impairment of our long term economic security.

 

I'm in favor of pulling them out 10 years ago. I don't think it matters how long we stay, the day we leave the Taliban will take over, it has always been the inevitable end for our involvement.

 

And through all of that you've just written you fail to accept the fact that it was the U.S. that started it in 1953 and continues (to this very day) to perpetuate the problem. On every forum there is someone who talks about what a swell place the U.S. is and how benign its' government is. The U.S. is a state sponsor of terrorism and is involved in every conflict in the world today. They spilt a lot of innocent, human blood from Vietnam to Iraq and Cuba and Iran and Libya and Cambodia, and Laos, and Haiti, and Grenada, and Syria, and virtually all of Latin America and yet they still preach death to any country that disagrees with them. It is a Capitalist "Cosa Nostra" of a nation that destroys Freedom, Democracy, and civil rights wherever it goes.

 

Sounds like you missed the whole cold war.

 

Sounds like you haven't heard about Shinola and a hole in the gound.

 

Maybe someone will throw you a rope.

 

O.k., I recognize the melody, but can't quite make out the words, otherwise I could google.
My favorite song has always been "Erika"....

https://archive.org/details/youtube-xYzhPXiKtGY
Enjoy!

 

Oh yes, I know Erika, the most popular of them all. If you can find the title of the one I linked I'd be very thankful.

 

O.k., here it is:
Der Text des Liedes
Vorwärts! Vorwärts! Schmettern die hellen Fanfaren.
Vorwärts! Vorwärts! Jugend kennt keine Gefahren.
Deutschland, du wirst leuchtend stehn,
mögen wir auch untergehn.
Vorwärts! Vorwärts! Schmettern die hellen Fanfaren.
Vorwärts! Vorwärts! Jugend kennt keine Gefahren.
Ist das Ziel auch noch so hoch,
Jugend zwingt es doch!
Unsre Fahne flattert uns voran.
In die Zukunft ziehn wir Mann für Mann.
Wir marschieren für Hitler durch Nacht und durch Not
Mit der Fahne der Jugend für Freiheit und Brot.
Unsre Fahne flattert uns voran.
Unsre Fahne ist die neue Zeit.
Und die Fahne führt uns in die Ewigkeit!
Ja, die Fahne ist mehr als der Tod!
Jugend! Jugend! Wir sind der Zukunft Soldaten.
Jugend! Jugend! Träger der kommenden Taten.
Ja, durch unsre Fäuste fällt,
wer sich uns entgegenstellt.
Jugend! Jugend! Wir sind der Zukunft Soldaten.
Jugend! Jugend! Träger der kommenden Taten.
Führer, wir gehören dir,
wir, Kam’raden dir!
Unsre Fahne flattert uns voran
In die Zukunft ziehn wir Mann für Mann.
Wir marschieren für Hitler durch Nacht und durch Not
Mit der Fahne der Jugend für Freiheit und Brot.
Unsre Fahne flattert uns voran.
Unsre Fahne ist die neue Zeit.
Und die Fahne führt uns in die Ewigkeit!
Ja, die Fahne ist mehr als der Tod!

https://de.metapedia.org/wiki/Vorwärts!_Vorwärts!_schmettern_die_hellen_Fanfaren
...
wo sind sie geblieben? Wo sind sie begraben?
Eingescharrt in Russlands Erde!
Verstuemmelt von Partisanen!
Geschaendet und aufgehaengt in Nuernberg!
Zu Tode gehungert auf den Rheinwiesen!


Der kleinen Schwester kommen die Traenen!

 

Thank you very much! I don't know how you found it. It is forbidden in the BRD so you are very resourceful!

Yes, many years have gone by and many questions have gone unanswered, but my dear friend, such is war. People are grieving all over the world and we just have to carry on till the end. Either we learn or we don't and it isn't always up to us as individuals to get over some of the hurdles. Let's just be thankful that we have done as well as we have.

Trockne deine Tränen, meine süße Schwester. Ich bin immer da!

 

Danke fuer Deine troestenden Worte, lieber Freund. Du hast ein gutes Herz.

 

Mit Küssen .....

 

Clearly you dont even read what other people say, you just assume what they might be thinking, and then you argue for the sake of arguing.

 

Ok. Then Bin Laden would still be out there plotting another 9/11, and possibly would already have launched another one.

That's how fast people forget.