The Trumpist claim that we're 'a republic, not a democracy' is even more dangerous than it sounds

Anyone with an IQ over 20 knows that posturing is a pseudo debate trick, and, as such, is not a valid counter argument.

Besides, I have given you incontrovertible and irrefutable proof to the contrary, so your IQ doesn't seem to improve your ability to avoid cognitive dissonance.

Anyone with an IQ over 20 knows that the term 'Democracy' has a broader meaning an is not defined by the EC.

'Democracy' is a term with a broader meaning than 'majority rule'. It can be used to refer to a direct democracy, it can be used to describe the western nations of which the US is one, oftn refered to as 'western democracies, or 'liberal democraies'. You are using Madison's usage of it, but Madison is not the final arbiter of the term's meaning, history is, and history gives it a broader meaning. I gave proof in a prior comment, and you choose cognitive dissonance. Besides, the founding fathers never intended for the minority rule. You see, 'protecting the rights of minorities' does not equal 'minority rule'.

[It is a] fundamental maxim of republican government, which requires that the sense of the majority should prevail. --Alexander Hamilton, Federalist #22

Checkmate.

I repeat, 'Republic" and 'Democracy' are not mutually exclusive terms.

Strawman.

None of the references to 'Republic' state 'America is a not a democracy'.

IN fact, the ONLY people saying that are republicans and the only time they started saying that is when they started to lose the popular vote and so republicans need to poo poo 'America is a Democracy' in order to feel good about losing the popular vote and to feel good about all of their voter suppression legislation.

Man, it just digs at you that the original name Republican Party was The Democrat-Republican Party'.

Did I not tell you this?

It goes on:

Man, it just digs and you that Hamilton said: [It is a] fundamental maxim of republican government, which requires that the sense of the majority should prevail.

That is proof that the founding fathers never intended for the President to be elected by a minority.

A parochial use of the term 'Democracy' is to assert that a democracy is a direct democracy.

It does have a broader meaning. Even Webster Dictionary agrees. Even the Encyclopedia Britannica agrees.

It's a parochial use of the term since all the democracies of the west are indirect democracies, most of parliamentary democracy of representatives or something similar yet they are all, including the US, called 'liberal democracies'.


Man, it just digs at your bones that US Government has declared that The United States is a Representative Democracy

https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/lesson-plans/Government_and_You_handouts.pdf

It really bothers you that the dictionary defines 'Republic' as 'any government of appointed or ELECTED leaders.

It really bothers you that another yet dictionary defines 'Republic' as "state in which power rests with the people or their representatives" AKA 'Representative Democracy.

https://act.represent.us/sign/democracy-republic
We often hear a question debated in person and online by Americans who care deeply about making sure our government works for the people: is the United States a democracy or a republic?

Here’s the answer: The United States is both a democracy and a republic.

Is the United States a democracy?

Yes, the United States is a democracy, since we, the people, hold the ultimate political power. We’re not a “direct democracy,” but we are a “representative democracy.”

So, which term should I use?
It’s really up to you. In practice, the word “republic” has the same meaning as the term “representative democracy.” And a representative democracy is a form of democracy in the same way that a Granny Smith apple is a form of apple

Repeat after me:

There are municipal elections in every municipality. There are state elections in every state.

There are elections for congress and the senate.

In every election but that of the Vice President and the President the office holders are elected by majority vote.

There are hundreds of elections in the United States and only Two every four years are not elected by the majority but even those, the majority wins the vast majority of the time.


It really digs at you that the Encyclopedia Britannica states:

modern representative democracies are by and large republics

Not all republics have elected leaders.

The broadest meaning of the term 'Republic" is

Any form of government that is not a monarchy.

The narrowest definition of a Republic is:

A representative form of government in which the representatives are elected by the majority.

the Broadest meaning of the term 'democracy' is:

Any form of government in which the leaders are directly or indirectly elected.

The narrowest definition of democracy is:

A form of government in which the leaders are elected by the majority.

As Merriam Webster tells us, the terms 'Democracy and 'Republic have both narrow and broad meanings, depending on how they are used.

Therefore:

America is a democracy

is a correct statement.

Therefore:

America is a republic

is a correct statement.

Therefore,

'Democracy and Republic' insofar as their broader meanings, are not mutually exclusive terms.

end of argument.

 

The word Republic describes the lack of a monarch or other unelected authority.
And that is ALL it means.
How leaders are chosen includes a democratic vote and that can be either direct or indirect.
I can't think of any form of government set up to protect the minority. That happens through laws like human rights laws WITHIN a form of government.
I am not sure if Condor is being evasive or has encountered some misinformation early in his political education. Either way, he seems a tad muddled to me.

 

I wrote:
A constitution does not define either a republic or a democracy

which Condor found amusing...in fact a constitution can define any form of government...from fascist dictatorship through a military dictatorship and to a communist dictatorship.
A constitution merely defines a form of government , not necessarily a democracy or Republic.

I won't hold my breath for an apology.

 

Why should I, you are wrong.

 

Read the OP.

Okay, I suppose you think I was implying 'read the article' in order for your question to be answered?

No, the article does not answer your question but that wasn't the reason I asked you to read it. I asked you to read it
merely to redirect your attention to the subject under discussion.

As a personal policy, I do not engage with off topic questions, unless they have a modicum of something interesting about them.

 

That's all I've ever heard from teachers, academicians, politicians, authors of history, and just about everyone since I was teenager in the 60s except recently by MAGA republicans in order to feel good about losing the popular vote, and to feel good about their voter suppression policies.

Alexis de Tocqueville, cherished writer often quoted by conservatives:

• Democracy in America. Alexis de Tocqueville. 4.7 out of 5 stars 574. Paperback. ...
• Democracy in America: The Complete and Unabridged Volumes I and II (Bantam Classics) Alexis de Tocqueville. 4.7 out of 5 stars 754. ...
• Democracy in America (Signet Classics) Alexis de Tocqueville. 4.4 out of 5 stars 169.

To wit; this from Harvard University:

Educating for American Democracy

https://ethics.harvard.edu/educating-american-democracy

Press about Educating for American Democracy:
Manisha Aggarwal-Schiffelite, "Redrawing the Civics Education Roadmap: New Standards Prioritizes Depth of Knowledge over Quantity of Facts," Harvard Gazette (March 1, 2021).

Lamar Alexander, Arne Duncan, John King, Rod Paige, Richard Riley and Margaret Spellings, "America Needs History and Civics Education to Promote Unity," The Wall Street Journal (March 1, 2021).

Danielle Allen and Paul Carrese, "Our Democracy Is Failing. Civic Education Has To Be Part of the Cure," The Washington Post (March 2, 2021).

"'Educating for American Democracy:' More History and Civics Needed in K-12," News and Guts (March 2, 2021).

Emma Greguska, "ASU, diverse team of collaborators release 'Roadmap to Educating for American Democracy'," ASU News (March 2, 2021).

Joe Heim, "Massive Investment in Social Studies and Civics Education Proposed to Address Eroding Trust in Democratic Institutions," The Washington Post (March 1, 2021).

Joe Heim interview with Kei Kawashima-Ginsberg, "How to Fix our Democracy? Start in Kindergarten," Can He Do That? podcast (March 4, 2021).

Rick Hess, "Approaching EAD’s New Civics Roadmap With Eyes Wide Open," Education Week (March 3, 2021).

Kei Kawashima-Ginsberg and Louise Dubé, "The road to a stronger democracy begins in the classroom," Boston Globe (March 8, 2021).



Spencer Lee Lenfield, "A Roadmap for Reforming Civic Education," Harvard Magazine (March 2, 2021).

Peter Levine, "Design Challenges for Civics and History Educators," Medium.com (March 3, 2021).

Kevin Mahnken, "After Year of ‘Peril’ for Democracy, Scholars Release New Framework for History and Civics in Schools," The74Million.org (March 1, 2021).

Stephen Sawchuck and Sarah Schwartz, "New National Civics Guidelines Carve a Middle Path for Teachers in a Polarized Climate," Education Week (March 1, 2021).

Tara D. Shonenshine, "Teaching democracy instead of just preaching it: A call for civic education," The Hill (March 2, 2021).

Sarah Swann, "Massive Investment in Civic Education Proposed to Reinvigorate Democracy," The Fulcrum (March 2, 2021).

Judy Woodruff interview with Danielle Allen, "https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/c...-help-break-down-barriers-in-american-society," PBS NewsHour (March 1, 2021).

Meg Woolhouse, "Hundreds Of Scholars Across Political Spectrum Recommend New Curriculum For Civics," WGBH News (March 1, 2021).

Matt Zalaznick, "12 ways better civics teaching creates ‘reflective patriots’," District Administration (March 3, 2021).

 

Emojis, a form of posturing, are not valid counter arguments

 

They aren't valid anything unless you are of a child level who likes comic books.
They certainly don't contain adult discussion.

 

You folks are on a mission to declare The United States a "democracy". Why is it so important? What's your motive?

 

What you really mean is excuse you for going off the rails exaggerating into lala land where you behave as if this semantical argument, that by your very own admission contains countless terms that are not mutually exclusive, is somehow an existential threat to democracy.

To call this much ado about nothing is an extreme exageration.

 

Errm...because it is and endlessly declares itself to be so?

 

Never meant to be a counter argument. They are provided to respond to claims that are so ridiculous, thats all the claim deserves.

 

You said they never claimed it isn't a Democracy. They never claimed Biden is a robot either. Does that make him one?

 

You're pettifogging.

Emojis are not a valid response, rebuttal, point, comment, idea, concept, or whatever term fits your fancy.

You're claim is that it is ridiculous.

You need to back that up with more than an emoji, i.e., provide substance. That moves the discourse forward. Emojis only get people like me to indicate is lack of merit as a response. Your emojis were an attempt to kill the discourse. It's the same motivation used for thought-terminating clichés, all of which fall under the larger umbrella called the non argument, of which the subheading is posturing.

Emojis, if they are the salient aspect of a response, are the province of those who lack debate skill.

Emojis are not a merit worthy response to anything.

Personally, I avoid them altogether.

 

"They never claimed that Biden is a robot" is a strawman.

There is nothing in the term 'Republic' that remotely points to that idea.

However, with Republic, history is abound with references to it's association with democracy, more specifically, a representative democracy, and that the broader meaning of democracy is inclusive of this concept. Yes, the term 'democracy' can be used to denote a direct democracy, but that is not it's only meaning, it does have a broader meaning and I've provided incontrovertible substantiation of that simple fact.

That is why your logic is strawman stuff.

No, I said that the term 'Republic" does not inherently mean 'Not a democracy' as you claim it does.

I said that teachers, professors, academicians, authors of history, lecturers, et al, since I was a teenager, in general, they tell us that America is a democracy and I gave you numerous treatises written by teachers, authors, professors, et al, from Universities and elsewhere, to substantiate that fact, noting that they are using the term in it's more broad meaning, NOT your narrow usage.

I have given you incontrovertible proof, from Encyclopedias, Dictionaries, Universities, authors, etc, which prove, incontrovertibly, irrefutably the following fact;

"Republic" is a term with broad to narrow meanings, it has more than one meaning.

"Democracy" is a term with broad to narrow meanings, it has more than one meaning.

Yuor entire argument is predicated on it's most narrow use.

My argument is predicated on it's broader meaning.

Given the above fact, this is true:

Republic and Democracy are not mutually exclusive terms if we are using their broadest meanings, of which such usage is rather common.

Now, the reason you are wrong is that you are denying the broader meaning, or it appears that you are. Feel free to correct me on that point..

If you change your mind or at the minimum correct me on the above and affirm that 'both are correct', I'll accept that.

If not, you are wrong.

Period.

 

Your opinion on emojis is just your opinion.
When someone post something so idiotic like, the constitution does not define it to be a Republic or a Democracy, I provided
A laughing out loud response as I decided their claim was so ridiculous and lacking in any amount of common sense or educational value, there is no benefit in any other response.

 

Those are all arguments and points you could have raised.

You're wrong on that point. For one thing, it's discourteous.

Those are all arguments and points you could have raised.......but, what you did was.........

a type of posturing. Posturing is not a merit worthy response when that is the totality of your response.

When the salient aspect of your response are emojis, that is, writ large, sophomoric. It gives the opponent no idea why you feel the way you do, and that's not courteous. Now, we all engage in discourtesy, from time to time, that is not the point.

Any attempt to kill the discourse before a sincere effort is made to achieve a meeting of mind ( or agree to disagree) is the province of those who lack debate skills.

And it is an attempt to kill the conversation because there is no proper response to an emoji riddled reply other than what I'm doing here.

Posturing, non arguments, self-puffery, emojis, patronizing, shaming, thought-terminating clichés, and any of the assorted pseudo debates tricks are all designed to kill the discourse, and, by that measure, are the province of those who lack debate skills or are novices.

Look, we all do such things to some degree, no one is innocent, my point is that 'when the salient part of your argument is (any one of the assorted debate sins)', then you are in sophomoric territory.

Like I said, no one is innocent, but I do strive. Sometimes I will get pissed off at stupidity and ad hom, but, it's tough not to when people are claiming you stole the election or that you are a communist, or some such utterly asinine thing.

 

Because in hte last few years, for the first time in my entire existence on this earth, which totals 71 years, some on the right, particularly Trump defenders, are declaring that 'America is not a democracy'. This is a new idea, make no mistake, it defies the historical association with America and Democracy, that democracy is a core value.

They are doing this to feel good about their voter suppression laws they are enacting in a number of red states, to feel good about the fact that they are not winning the popular vote in decades.

By promoting the idea that America is not a democracy it will give more credence to their anti-democratic efforts (which are done under the ruse of 'voter integrity' but whcih in fact make it more difficult for the poor to vote), and the electing of anti-democratic persons such as Donald Trump. Make no mistake, anyone who declares, a year before the first ballot was ever cast, and does it over and over and over again in every rally up to past the election to the current, does not believe in democracy. And, if you declare that America is not a democracy, it will give those anti-democrative efforts credence.

Democrats are here to crush that movement, and it is becoming a movement, make no mistake.

The seeds of anti-democracy in America are planted with the idea that America is not a democracy.

 

Its not a strawman meaning you don't know anything about the very term you love to throw around when your point gets crushed.

YOU stated this

You never heard them claim Biden isn't a robot either. Now magically because you never heard them claim America is not a Democracy, that we must be? And when I point out that EXACT line of thinking, magically it becomes a strawman?
You need to learn what a strawman is before using the term again.

And because you continue to fail on convincing anyone about YOUR Democracy vs Republic theories, out of desperation, YOU try and conflate the constitution with the definition of Democracy.

Again, you try and claim because what something MAY not mean? But we are used to the left trying desperately to REDIFINE terms that don't align with their actual nature.

Lets take a look at what you really said

Not quite the same. Is it

No you haven't. What you have done is what all of your threads attempt to do. Redefine meanings with your google searches.

PERFECT EXAMPLE

And now again magically, their broad terms mean the same thing. lol

The US has always been, and will always be a constitutional republic with Representatives elected by the people. And those representatives are required to abide by a constitution that protects the minorities of the people so that a majority can never rule them by vote.

The President is elected by an electoral college which is the opposite of a Democracy because presidents are not elected by popular vote. A fact Democrats to this day can't get over as they have whined about Trump winning over Hillary and their reason to get rid of the EC. Even YOU have claimed its time to get rid of the EC.

Our constitution guarantees the PEOPLE have the power to stop our government from a majority rule system which is inherent, and requested, by Democrats.

Our founders knew the difference between a Democracy and a Republic which is why they setup our constitution and bill of rights against the ideology of a Democracy.

But because you can find someone who agrees with you on the internet, you post volumes of information to make these declarations but at the end of the day,
The Founding Fathers made it clear,
Benjamin Franklyn made it clear,
Nancy Pelosi made it clear,
The Pledge of allegiance made it clear,
The Electoral College made it clear,
The Bill of Rights made it clear,
we are a Constitutional Republic.

And all of your definition hoping and conflations can't change any of it.

 

Except I didn't say that.
I said a constitution does not define A or ONLY a democracy.
YOUR Constitution defines YOUR country. Orher constitutions define ORHER countries, not always republics or democracies.
Once again you display a very poor understanding of anything outside your own country.
Your country is unique. Every country is unique. Yours is no more unique than any other.
Insulting others by laughing at them requires full understanding of what you are laughing about.

 

No, we are reminding you that The United States is a republic and not a democracy. For some reason, control purposes I'm sure, you all have taken to calling The United States a "democracy" and she isn't.

By parroting incessantly that The United States is a democracy, you make low information voters think that everything can be decided by referendum and that couldn't be further from the truth.

 

Declares it where, exactly?

 

Very Hobbsism of you.

 

When it holds elections.

 

That doesn't make The United States a democracy. In fact, because our laws are made by elected representatives and not by referendum, we aren't a democracy.