There's an old saying

Depends if one wants their vote or not...

 

Send a check dude. The government isnt going to turn it down.

 

There is also an old saying that the left needs to heed

"don’t sh!t where you sleep"

 

my, my, my... you really are full of yourself, aren't you. don't you get it? we don't shun them. they are an obstacle to be overcome, but they are also our brothers and sister. how do we lead the sheep of humanity if not by example? we succeed, we donate to those in need and we hope that others will follow our lead. that we don't want to join your mindless lowing throng may lead you to believe that we consider ourselves somehow better, but the truth is that any one of those bleating morons could join us in success. all that stands in their way is a bit of luck and the desire, but that sounds too much like work for most. and it is work, it's damn hard work. but it's worth it if you really want to be more than an animal.

 

I'm full of myself? Dude, you are using the Royal "We" to describe yourself the entirety of your post. God, can it get any funnier ...

 

it isn't the "royal" we. i speak for many of us here under the ice. we exist because of people like you, who insist on regulating every move the public makes, and prosper in spite of your meddling. yes, you are the mob. we are merely the natural reaction to your infection.

 

My, my, my, aren't you just full of yourself. So anyone that doesn't subscribe to your materialistic self aggrandizement is what, a moron? A sheep? Animals? Why bless your heart.

 

Dude - you just appointed yourself the Spokesman of the Ice People. The Royal "We". Hilarious.

 

very true. So many theories and arguments in support of economic, political systems but oftentimes we don’t factor in human nature or the peoples that make up a society.

Reality is that the people is what makes things work. Educated, rationale, respectful, law abiding people can make any system work, albeit some systems work better than others. Throw in a mob of ignorant, unedcuated people and they won’t be able to make any system work. The HORDE, as you call them.

Human nature is to want what others have, it’s a driving force that fuels socialism. It doesn’t matter how hard a person works to get rich or what he/she contributes to society, someone at bottom will by nature see this person as inherently evil. It’s human nature and too many can’t seem to fight it with cognition, they just rationalize that everyone at the top steals wealth and oppresses and so they need to be punished. Talk about evils...

 

I reread your post and had made a few incorrect assumptions on the basis of a quick first reading .. so my bad for that.

That said - while what you say is mostly true - you do not contrast the general nature of the individual towards laziness with the other problems related to the nature of the individual on the other side of the equation which is self interest and greed.

You are thus making an argument for Capitalism - contrasted with an argument against collectivism - but you omit the argument against capitalism.

This - in journalistic terms - is called "the sin of omission"

 

the argument against capitalism? but capitalism is man in his natural state. this is something that most folks fail to recognize. man, the ultimate predator, seeks to occupy and own everything within his scope. greed, for want of a better term and skirting the ultimate sin of quoting a bad movie script, is good. greed creates the comfort zone that allows us charity. greed allows us to inexorably consume and create opportunities for others to prosper. greed only becomes evil when it is coddled by punitive legislation or enhanced by a tendency toward self-obsession. altruism, on the other hand, is a lie. it is simply greed of another kind. it is greed for acceptance. it is greed for recognition and the accolades that come with such virtue signaling.

collectivism is usually coupled with the lie of altruism. collectivism, born of the needs of survival, has outlived its purpose and is now a remnant of our primitive past. so what are the arguments left for collectivism? that it forces the outliers in line with the majority? that it strips individuality in order to create the most uniform society? that it it enriches the inevitable managing class, allowing them to bleed off vital resources for their own comfort? stifling creativity, silencing dissent, the creation of a massive under-class - these are just a few of the "accomplishments" of modern collectivism. we can go back a bit further and find wholesale slaughter and massive enslavement, but that's just icing on an already sickening cake. you want the argument against capitalism? it is only magnified by the inherent corruption of large scale collectivism.

yes, collectivism is viable. it works as a small scale, temporary adjunct to the larger natural system of capitalism. any attempt to grow or perpetuate it merely magnifies the evil that men bring to their natural state.

 

Don't you know it!

 

36%? He's at 36%? WOW !!! That's like three times his poling numbers going into the his last election.

You all remind me of a bowler all bent over to the side watching his ball go down the lane, and you're only ones surprised when you gutter. Those poles are NOT a straight look at what's going on. They are merely attempts to bend over backwards to try to get things to look as if they are going the way you want them to. Good luck with that.

 

We'll cross that bridge if we get to it. Right now, I'm glad to have my nose above water.
Don't let perfection become the enemy of progress.

 

The above is a seemingly custom made example of the OP's main point. It also goes a long way to reinforce the idea that they can't help it. They have nothing else. Zip. Zero. Zilch.

 

So your point is they all paid their lawful taxes?

 

Well, yeah, in rebuttal to a post suggesting Trump didnt pay his share.

So, yes, that is my point.

Also, to point out Trump paid more in taxes than Bernie, or Clinton, or Obama... those socialist saviors.

 

which bridge is that? the ignorant electorate? the great lie of democracy? the power of the mob over the individual? sorry, those bridges have already been crossed and only a miracle can reverse the course of history. while your nose may be above water, the rest of you is getting waterlogged.

perfection should always be our goal, but we lost sight of it long ago. remember the phrase "to form a more perfect union"? it's right there in the preamble to our preeminent founding document, but the entire document has been eroded over the course of nearly two and a half centuries. the notion of "progressivism" long ago became all about someone's notion of progress as opposed to the constant striving for perfection. perfection is a personal thing, radiating outward like a beacon, but the individual has been discounted as irrelevant and the only beacon we notice is the siren song of comfortable poverty. the stupidity surrounding these never-trumpers is merely a symptom. the disease is a lethargy of the soul and an unwillingness to search for truth.

i'm afraid you'll have to forgive my flowery foolishness. i've been drinking since about 6am and it's so much fun to play with the words that i just can't seem to stop.

 

Doesn't matter, they all paid what they lawfully owed......but in Trump's case, the jury is still out.

 

I agree with you in relation to collectivism. Where you go off script is in relation to your perspective on capitalism and in not addressing the points I have made - as in talking over them = your not listening.

You start out with a contradiction - you criticize lazyness as being the natural state - as if the "natural state" is bad. You then infer that greed and self interest are only good because its the "natural state" - to the point of Social Darwinism.

Your claim that "the only evil of greed/self interest" is punitive regulation is complete, unadulterated nonsense which ignores reality.

The natural outcropping of greed and self interest are monopolism/oligopolism. These negative structures are aided by regulation due to the ability of the elite to influence and control Gov't.

As stated previously - Extreme capitalism and extreme socialism meet at the far end of the spectrum... in both cases you end up with a few elite controlling most resources and means of production.

 

LOL! The entire world has mostly written off US leadership thanks to the orange clown.

And when your water isn't safe to drink anymore, be sure to thank republicans.

 

man's natural state, it is both good and bad. it spurs him toward growth, as any other animal, and, in its ultimate form, it allows him to alter his reality.

i notice you like to interject the term "only" into your interpretations of my posts. the problem is that these things aren't good or bad "only" because they are natural to the mind of man. laziness, when it allows us periods to contemplate, might be considered "good". it is only when used as an excuse to avoid the necessary labors of life and demand others take up the slack that it becomes "bad". greed is the same sort of double edged sword. it allows us to strengthen ourselves, to accumulate goods and power that may then be used in either a positive or negative manner. your insistence that i claimed "punitive regulation" was the only cause of greed being turned toward the dark side is "unadulterated nonsense" and it ignores my post almost entirely. you disingenuously ignored the second half of the statement where i included self-obsession. this is the cause of the monopolies, oligopolies and all the rest that you rail against. these are, more often than not, the result of the self-centered tendencies of those within the private sector and the public sector joining together in conspiracy against the common good, somewhat akin to the corruption that is seemingly part and parcel of the entire socialist system.

 

We are now getting on a more similar page. You did claim self obsession (what I referred to previously as self interest) but, this is a function of human nature.

What you did not do is get into the negative consequences of this natural human tendency with respect to capitalism as you did with collectivism and that was my main point - a point not adequately addressed prior to you continuing to rail against collectivism (which is preaching to the choir in any case - as I have stated twice now that both extreme socialism and extreme capitalism lead to the same place)

For time #3. Extreme socialism and extreme capitalism lead to the same place at the far end of the spectrum - a few elite owning most resources and means of production.

Our system has managed to take some of the worse elements of both. These have been combined into what I call an "Oligopoly Bureaucracy Fusion Monster".

It is a system where the fair and free markets are bastardized through regulation and tax law. This tilts the field in favor of the Oligopolies and the worker into indentured servitude. Do feel free to ask for examples.

In addition - the Oligopolies are allowed to engage in price fixing and various other nefarious anti competitive practices.

As a result - the wealth equation is way out of whack. This not about lazy folks not wanting to work. This is about the worker being forced to subsidize corporate interests and artificial wage deflation towards indentured servitude.

 

let's begin with what we have already agreed upon, that any extreme is to be avoided. any system must be tempered with the rule of law. you claim that i fail to criticize capitalism as pointedly as i do collectivism and you are entirely correct. the reason i do is that every criticism of capitalism inexorably leads back to an unholy alliance between the private sector and the state. it is this alliance, the very core of socialism, that allows monopolies to grow, workers to be victimized and capitalism itself to be warped. none of this can be laid at the feet of capitalism, an economic system, but is a function of political corruption.

we need a buffer between religion and the state in order to allow each faith to have its own place in this nation. the rule of law, a function of the state, prevents religious institutions from becoming abusive, but does not directly interfere with the religion itself. we need a similar buffer between the state and business institutions. the rule of law is to be used to punish transgressions or as a threat to keep those transgressions from taking place, but the direct interference with the business community that has become so commonplace is antithetical to the very idea of a free nation. it all comes down to whether you believe the purpose of government is to simply protect the rights of the individual or is to engage in massive social engineering. this nation was founded on the former, but both socialism and progressivism are based on the latter. one path leads to a natural progression, an evolution if you will, of the society. the other is based on the use of violence in order to force society toward some imagined greater good.

 

I am not sure how religion got into the equation so I will only comment on the above.

I could say that every criticism of Socialism inexorably leads to an unholy alliance between corporations and the state and it would be equally true. It is this alliance , the very core of capitalism that allows monopolies to grow, workers to be victimized and capitalism to be warped.

Of course both my and your equally true claims are a function of political corruption. This is the natural outcropping of self interest and greed.

At the end of the day - criticism of Capitalism and Socialism - are not really what is responsible .. it is political corruption that is responsible.

Criticism of both can lead to policy which mitigates the problems of both. This is what is lacking in the Mainstream Media - which is owned and/or controlled by the big money interests who are at the top of the Establishment food chain - The Establishment consisting of the Political and Bureaucratic elite - along with the big money interests and influence.

It is this unholy alliance that is the problem in this nation.

It is not Socialist policy in general that is responsible for the fact that our total military spend is over 1 Trillion dollars (other than the fact that wealth redistribution is used to fund this and other policy that will be mentioned) - to pad the pockets of the international and national financiers that run the Military Industrial Complex and its various oligopolies.

It is not Socialist policy that is responsible for our 3.5 trillion dollar healthcare spend (double what other first world nations spend) to pad the pockets of Healthcare Oligopolies.

Socialist policy is thus not mainly responsible for our massive deficits and debt (again to pad the pockets of the international financiers who own the banks and the Fed)