Tiananmen 30 years on - China's great act of 'forgettance'

Discussion in 'Asia' started by zer0lis, Jun 1, 2019.

  1. zer0lis

    zer0lis Active Member

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    _107061505_mediaitem107061504.jpg
    The Tank Man photo has come to define what happened at Tiananmen Square.(copywrite of Reuters)

    Excerpt:
    In the weeks leading up to 4 June, the world's biggest censorship machine goes into overdrive as a huge dragnet of automated algorithms and tens of thousands of human expurgators cleanse the internet of any reference, however oblique.

    LINK


    If you read George Orwell's 1984, the parallel is obvious. China is actively purging the past, removing all instances of what happened 30 years ago. The next generation of Chinese will have no idea, no trace, nothing, absolute blank about the past. Maybe it will be replaced with the narrative that people gathered in the square to celebrate the Party.

    If I was Chinese and I would have posted this here, I would be in jail for years to come.

    Lets not forget the men that died for liberty and for the end of the party corruption 30 years ago! God bless those brave souls, may they rest in peace.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2019
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  2. 61falcon

    61falcon Well-Known Member

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    Don't forget we have Wounded Knee in our history.
     
  3. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    And if China allowed itself to be swept up in the Pro democracy wave that Soros funded organisations brought over the last 30 years...they would probably be as big a mess as all the other new democracies that sprung up since the 80's.
    For many who live in these new corrupt and failing democracies, democracy has become a swearword.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2019
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  4. notme

    notme Well-Known Member

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    Plenty of people still have a darndest problem accepting the US lead war against Iraq was all based on lies, lies and more lies. And lets not forget ISIS was born out of the chaos the US deliberately created in Iraq. The EU thanks the US for the spread of terror and the millions of refugees who seek shelter.

    China really aint the only one erasing it's dirty past.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2019
  5. zer0lis

    zer0lis Active Member

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    I fall somehow in your category of 'failed' democracies of eastern Europe.

    I am so glad it happened, like most people. We defeated communism. We have referendums, we jail politicians, we have 10% growth, free press, we can do business. We Are Free like we were 2 generations ago.

    I wish the Chinese the same.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2019
  6. zer0lis

    zer0lis Active Member

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    Maybe, but China is doing it differently, in communist style.
     
  7. notme

    notme Well-Known Member

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    It's not any different, buddy.
     
  8. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I wonder, does China purge their internet about information about how much censorship there is?
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2019
  9. zer0lis

    zer0lis Active Member

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    They do it..

    The average citizens know about this but fear the oppression.

    The US does not engage in re-education, jail for common internet debates. Criticism of the gov will get you instant trouble. The US does not ban opposite opinion, regarding anything, like the Iraq War.

    The US maybe uses intimidation or false flags but it's not the same.
     
  10. notme

    notme Well-Known Member

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    The GOP does still a heck of a lot to erase the idea that they made up claims about WMD's in Iraq, that loads of people just swallow that. And they have results. Half of the GOP still believed in 2015 that they actually found WMDs in Iraq.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2019
  11. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    that's not a failed democracy.. failed democracies don't have
    rejoice... you do not live in a "failed" democracy, because those who do are disillusioned, see poverty levels increasing rapidly. Their future will be filled with hunger and disease.

    [​IMG]
    https://www.transparency.org/news/feature/cpi_2018_global_analysis
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2019
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  12. zer0lis

    zer0lis Active Member

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    I guess the problem with those countries is that they never had democratic principles in the first place or are long-lasting democracies which are so absorbed and forgets tyranny is around the corner every time.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2019
  13. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Here's the problem.

    It's not the system, there are good democracies and good autocracies. The problem is rapid change, specifically regime change, basically pulling the rug out from under a sitting government, replacing them with incompetent or corrupt individuals who use the "rhetoric" of "Democracy!" to get into power.

    Organisations like Soros' Pro Democracy organisations are effectively funding rebellion. They are funding regime change and the overthrow of government. The victims are the people themselves, who while sinking into poverty are most disillusioned with democracy... since they were promised they were going to be free and everything is going to be fair, while these pro democracy rulers steal everything out from under the people and hide the money in Tax havens.
     
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  14. Moi621

    Moi621 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    They don't have a cultural experience with democracy, and just don't "get it".
    Witness the most Democratic of Arabia! - except Jordan -
    My Russian father-in-law firmly believed Russia needs a "strong man".


    Heaven Is Not A Democracy
    and
    Democracy Is Not Heaven.
     
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  15. catalinacat

    catalinacat Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Oh really?? Really. Is the U.S. prosecuting and killing Christians and destroying their bibles? It is actually getting worse, but your media will not talk about that. Are they being put into camps? I'm not talking about migrants to China, I am talking about Chinese people who have turned to Christianity. You people that see China as innocent and U.S. just as bad are showing true ignorance. Just go live over there, if you are now such a fan of communism. People that admire communism have no tolerance for Christians.
     
  16. Woogs

    Woogs Well-Known Member

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    Kristof [New York Times]wrote in a June 13, 1989 article,

    “The question of where the shootings occurred has significance because of the Government’s claim that no one was shot on Tiananmen Square. State television has even shown film of students marching peacefully away from the square shortly after dawn as proof that they were not slaughtered. …

    The central scene in the [eyewitness] article is of troops beating and machine-gunning unarmed students clustered around the Monument to the People’s Heroes in the middle of Tiananmen Square. Several other witnesses, both Chinese and foreign, say this did not happen. …

    There is also no evidence of machine-gun emplacements on the roof of the history museum that were reported in the Wen Wei Po article. This reporter was directly north of the museum and saw no machine guns there. Other reporters and witnesses in the vicinity also failed to see them. …

    “The central theme of the Wen Wei Po article was that troops subsequently beat and machine-gunned students in the area around the monument and that a line of armored vehicles cut off their retreat. But the witnesses say that armored vehicles did not surround the monument – they stayed at the north end of the square – and that troops did not attack students clustered around the monument. Several other foreign journalists were near the monument that night as well and none are known to have reported that students were attacked around the monument.”vii

    The Chinese government’s account acknowledges that street fighting and armed clashes occurred in nearby neighborhoods. They say that approximately three hundred died that night including many soldiers who died from gunfire, Molotov cocktails and beatings. But they have insisted that there was no massacre.

    Kristof too says that there were clashes on several streets but refutes the “eyewitness” report about a massacre of students in Tiananmen Square: “the students and a pop singer, Hou Dejian, were negotiating with the troops and decided to leave at dawn, between 5 A.M. and 6 A.M. The students all filed out together. Chinese television has shown scenes of the students leaving and of the apparently empty square as troops moved in as the students left.”

    https://www.liberationnews.org/tiananmen-the-massacre-that-wasnt/
     
  17. zer0lis

    zer0lis Active Member

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    OK, lets dig deep.

    First!
    Your article:
    By Brian Becker
    Jun 03, 2019
    Total bullshit because the article in question was reposted from time to time starting from the 2000s. It appears to originate first on the clearnet on this link:
    https://www.pslweb.org/liberationnews/news/what-really-happened-in.html
    The page you were looking for was not found.
    The Party for Socialism and Liberation (PSL) is a communist party[3] in the United States established in 2004.

    I can go deeper with searching the clearnet archives but..
    This link dated 5 years ago is absolutely copy pasted in Chineese. It seems more like it was first released in Chinese to picked up by PSL propaganda news arm.
    https://sinopolitico.com/2014/07/18/天安門:沒發生過的屠殺/


    Second!
    China insisted that there was no massacre of students in Tiananmen Square and in fact the soldiers cleared Tiananmen Square of demonstrators without any shooting.i

    The source of the claim is Jim Abrams, “Rival military units battle in Beijing,” Associated Press, June 6, 1989.

    That article is nowhere to be found on a multitude of search engines with different search options and I have searched the official AP archive, limiting the query to just Beijing and Tiannmen, still no trace of the article mentioned as source. You can imagine I have stopped searching the next sources but I imagine they are all fabricated.

    http://www.aparchive.com/search?startd=06/04/1989&endd=06/07/1989&allFilters=04/06/1989-07/06/1989:Date&query=Beijing&advsearchStartDateFilter=04/06/1989&advsearchEndDateFilter=07/06/1989&searchFilterHdSDFormat=All&searchFilterDigitized=All&searchFiltercolorFormat=All&searchFilteraspectratioFormat=All#allFilters=1,04/06/1989-07/06/1989:Date

    If you can find the source article please post the link and destroy my claim.


    Third!

    Think about it.
    If PLA is innocent and did nothing bad why the hell are they purging any instance of what happened from their data and network infrastructures?

    You choose to believe that 'troops did not attack students clustered around the monument and the students peacefully gather and left the square'. Why should they 'peacefully leave' after the 7th week there? Magic? They were given sweets? Free *****? WHY.

    You choose to believe that I choose to believe:
    "This gun-happy soldier, he's firing indiscriminately into the crowd and three young girl students knelt down in front of him and begged him to stop firing," she says quietly, gesturing with her hands in a praying motion.
    "And he killed them."
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
  18. notme

    notme Well-Known Member

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    On the topic of the US erasing their dirty past: yes really.
     
  19. zer0lis

    zer0lis Active Member

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    While I can see limited actions in that direction, is not a policy or a trait and it's definitely not at the scale of China or the Soviet Union.
    Your comparison(or deflection) is not appropriate.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
  20. notme

    notme Well-Known Member

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    You say that, while we got the GOP and the Dems claiming the other side of fake news..... ALL the time. lol
     
  21. Woogs

    Woogs Well-Known Member

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    First off, the article I cited in my post wss from the New York Times. Looking it up, it's in the archives but I don't have a subscription.

    What I did find in searching was a lot of pictures of those events. There are lots of photos of unarmed Chinese soldiers attempting to block protesters by linking arms. Also photos of burned out Chinese APCs and a particularly gruesome photo of a dead Chinese soldier strung up along the side of a bus. Also photos if protesters with guns.

    Does that make me totally believe the Chinese government version? No, but it does show that there was a lot of provocation from the protesters side. Would our government stand for our National Guard vehicles being burned and troops killed? Hell no!! Remember Kent State? 4 dead protesters without violent provocation.

    It seems like a lot of stuff on Tiananmen is not available with just a quick click. However, you can Google "Chinese soldiers killed at Tiananmen Square" and check "images" and you will see that there are definitely 2 sides to the story.
     
  22. Reasonablerob

    Reasonablerob Well-Known Member

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    Different times, different cricumstances
     
  23. Reasonablerob

    Reasonablerob Well-Known Member

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    And this is why China is the real greatest threat to world security, far more than Iran, North Korea or Russia.
     
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  24. zer0lis

    zer0lis Active Member

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    I have responded for the article you posted the link, which included a reference to the NY Times's article.

    Anyway, I have searched again for Nichola's Kristoff article. Nowhere to be found, on his longtime RSS feed or NY times's archives.

    Searching his article I found his newest one from him regarding Tiananmen:

    Thirty years ago in the spring of 1989, as the world’s most populous country teetered on the edge of freedom, I received a late-night phone call in my apartment in Beijing: The Chinese Army was invading its own capital.
    ...
    I was then the Beijing bureau chief of The Times, and I ran around that evening, the notebook clutched in my hand stained with the sweat of fear, to document horrors that remain seared into my memory. You never forget watching young people, some of the nation’s best and brightest, full of passion and idealism, stand up to machine guns — and then in an instant crumple bloody and lifeless on the ground.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/01/opinion/sunday/tiananmen-square-protest.html

    Woogs, you were on my personal cool posters list, but I ll keep tabs on you from now on:D

    From your article:
    We hope this article will equip progressive people with the information needed to resist the demonization campaign targeting China that is a necessary precursor to deadly confrontation.

    You might think that me starting the thread is being on par with US demonization of China(which I happen to believe its the case, but thats a different topic). You couldn't be more wrong. I did it for the young people that sacrificed themselves that are being erased of their heroism. The ones with no names, the ones cant be to speak of in China.To never be forgotten, another footprint on the clearnet because they choose to erase it. A counter effect.

    My posting history shows that I have bashed the US, the EU, Russia or China whenever I feel its the case. I am no patriot, thus I dont wear any blinding glasses. If I want to know bad stuff about the West I ll go to globalresearch or RT, and if I want to know bad stuff about the Russia/China I go to MSM. I try to find a balance and make my mind. You, however...

    Another reason for the thread is that population control techniques, which China leads the way, are increasingly inspiring for western politicians.

    The surveillance state. Made in China. Exported to the world.

    This is what I fear the most for the societies that I live in and care for. The trends that China is setting.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2019
  25. zer0lis

    zer0lis Active Member

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    I am aware.
    There are two stories here, the truth maybe is in the middle, but it looks like you made your mind which story you believe, same as me.

    I was not aware of the Kent State 'incident'. Thank you, I will look into it. The search result is full of entries. Not erased from existence:)
     

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