Too Smart to stop thinking too Stupid to stop.

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by AboveAlpha, Nov 14, 2013.

  1. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2009
    Messages:
    8,178
    Likes Received:
    1,078
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I don't think we were ever very likely to persuade one another, but I am still interested in learning your perspective. I'm more interested in exploring the view and being able to ask questions when there are things I don't understand.
    Well, clearly, in a view which doesn't include God, it is simply not true that guilt is heaven sent. In the version I have suggested, guilt comes from knowingly causing harm. The rest, people hiding their crimes, follows as easily from what I suggest as from your view. I don't see how your evidence (the fact that people hide their crimes) support your conclusion (that guilt must come from heaven).

    You should understand that to support your claim that guilt comes from heaven, it is not enough to show that you can provide a narrative like that, you must show that no other version can be true.
    Well, I would say the same thing you said here, except I wouldn't refer to our "divine" nature as much as our human nature. I don't see how this answers any of my concerns or highlights any problems with the ideas I have suggested.
    This is really another line of argument altogether. I'm not 100% on what you mean by all parts of it (for instance, the first line seems to me a contradiction). It also, it doesn't seem to be true, it is quite possible to reverse engineer a product of an unintelligent system. For instance, we have computer programs which simulate dumb design, and the results are quite possible to be reverse engineered. Not sure I've understood the argument though. Either way, I don't think it has anything to do with the claim I originally criticised.
    Isn't the fact that "we have no idea" a very valid excuse? If we wire a door handle to a gun aimed at an innocent, and you try to open the door and inadvertently kills the innocent, isn't the fact that you didn't know that that was going to happen a very good excuse?

    Do you base this on anything more than that you "feel" it's tremendously divine? Human feelings aren't known for their ability to pick out the right choice.
    Perhaps, or perhaps I should submit to Mohammed, or study the teachings of the Buddha, or worship Rama Krishna. I have already given Christianity disproportionate attention.
     
  2. Ashwin Poonawal

    Ashwin Poonawal Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2017
    Messages:
    161
    Likes Received:
    74
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Gender:
    Male
    Mr. Swensson,

    I am a new member; I don't know how to direct my response towards you. You are an old hand; may be you can show the way.

    I sense an open mind on your side. As such, I would enjoy exchanging ideas with you.

    The idea I presented is far removed from Christian ideology. But I assure you, that I would not put any idea on the table as mine, without conviction. I am not a preacher or a scholar, and I am not trying to convert any one to anything. My aim is to render and receive help from friends. With that understanding, your comments are very welcome.

    Ashwin Poonawala
     
  3. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2012
    Messages:
    31,872
    Likes Received:
    2,646
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Good answer!

    Your reasoning fits very well with what I have came to believe.

    Where did Intelligence begin, in matter or fundamental energy?
     
  4. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2009
    Messages:
    8,178
    Likes Received:
    1,078
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Sorry, I didn't see your answer. There is a reply button at the bottom right of posts, if you use that to respond, I will get a notification.
    First and foremost, I don't quite understand what's being said here. I may be misrepresenting what is being said if I don't understand it.

    I agree that those who characterise the "spiritual" as supernatural does spiritualism a disfavour. If spiritualism is considered natural, that gets rid of a bunch of awkward questions.

    I would say that which you call the total mind is still mostly in your brain, even though it can be more subtle than what's going on in the "brain" (what you call the brain). There have been many who categorise different parts of our thought process without concluding some of it doesn't take part in the brain. The Id/Ego/Superego comes to mind.

    That being said, the rest of what you say, be it meditation, introspection or things like that are good (in moderation).
     
  5. Ashwin Poonawal

    Ashwin Poonawal Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2017
    Messages:
    161
    Likes Received:
    74
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Gender:
    Male
    One combined cell contains information to create a whole body, with instincts, strengths and short comings. It carries parents' traits, gender information, and information giving adulthood at the right age. Our body contains genes and chromosomes. Our immunity has pyramids of information. Mind is much more than brain. Brain is empty at birth, while mind is full of information at birth. Brain analyzes and stores experiences after the birth only, while mind brings with it a lot of information at birth. People who only apply their brain act arrogantly (like teenagers, until over time they learn that life is not all black and white). Wisdom resides in the deeper mind. Introspection takes us deeper in mind. Calmer the mind deeper you go.
     
  6. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2009
    Messages:
    8,178
    Likes Received:
    1,078
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    It seems to me that DNA, genes and chromosomes and the like are not one's mind (although it may influence the mind). The mind is simply a process that takes place in your brain. Our brains have stuff in them at birth. Not so much explicit experiences, but a structure which can be used to store information.

    It doesn't seem to me that calming your mind accesses anything outwith your brain (other than maybe being able to feel your body). You're just unlocking processes of your brain that you may not have been using before.
     
  7. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2012
    Messages:
    31,872
    Likes Received:
    2,646
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    OK... come on back and take over!
     
  8. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2012
    Messages:
    31,872
    Likes Received:
    2,646
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male

    Sorry if I already sent you this quote.......
    but I am pretty sure you will like it anyway.

    If that being of light of NDE fame is really the Devil........
    it is no d... wonder that a third of the angels would follow that dude!

    Being of light Dude did a great job of answering this eleven year old kid's questions.


    https://www.near-death.com/experiences/children.html#a03

    http://www.politicalforum.com/index.php?threads/the-being-of-light-of-nde-fame-g-d-or-satan.445248/

    The being of light of NDE fame, G-d or Satan?
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2017
  9. Ashwin Poonawal

    Ashwin Poonawal Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2017
    Messages:
    161
    Likes Received:
    74
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Gender:
    Male
    Our quest to understand life is as old as life itself. The reason for the quest is the desire to be happy.

    The parts of nature, that primitive man could not understand were attributed to God, the old father in heaven.

    As science developed, like discovery of iron, man became mightier. Some used it for material gains and some for power. The destructive high level of tyranny of the kingdoms made some men look for answers. They found that the answers lie in the heart and not in books. They came up with the profound understanding of working of the mind. Their preaching became religions. So, a true religion is nothing but science of mind.

    The universe is all one logic. Calculus and Fourier equations deal with much larger number of dimensions than arithmetic. But none of the modes of mathematics violate others. They are all true on their level.

    An 18 years thinks he has all the answers of life. But at 25 he is baffled by the grey areas of life. This is because life has unfolded some new dimensions for him during the 7 years.

    We all have seen that some times life's baffling situations resolve into nothing after hard soul searching. Brain only understands the past experiences. But our heart knows life's other dimensions. That is what the masters did; introspection.

    The only words that can click with a heart are in which the associated concepts are close to surface. Other wise we all should have been Jesus and Buddha. Thus the original message looses its punch over generations. Then, well meaning preachers add magic to keep the audience spell bound, and the crooked ones do this for ulterior motives. This how the magical God grew and grew.

    If my purpose is to be happy, why can't I be totally selfish, and ignore all Gods and all the noble principles in the books. All I want do is introspect and make myself happy. This means being true to my heart; as they say put you money where your heart is. I am willing to suffer for things in proportion to their closeness to my heart. Amazingly every step I take forward on this path my happiness increases many fold, because I shed some more fears.

    Some say God seats at the end of this journey. But I could not care less. I don't even know how long my journey is. But when each step of the journey is so rewarding, who gives hoot about the destination.

    The funny thing is as I advance, I get glimpses of the golden rules. But this way whatever convictions I achieve are confirmed by me, and not by books.

    Of course, all the stimulus (words, experiences) I receive from the world prompt me to introspect. But I weigh each stimulus with the known part of my mind, before accepting it. This saves me from cult like traps. As we said, If the answer calculus presents contains a part that says 2 + 2 =5, I reject that answer.

    Religion is logic. If there is God, he has to be logical.
     
  10. Chester_Murphy

    Chester_Murphy Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2017
    Messages:
    7,503
    Likes Received:
    2,227
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    This post struck me. As you know more and understand, you have less need for faith. As you do not understand the senselessness of killing and death, you do not have more faith.

    Something is wrong with that.

    Good luck in your understanding. Seems you do not understand enough, or you would not be challenging anyone's belief or your own.
     
    DennisTate likes this.
  11. Hawkins

    Hawkins Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2008
    Messages:
    372
    Likes Received:
    32
    Trophy Points:
    28
    It is because you are brainwashed by your in-depth education. Quantum physics will have to work inside its own paradigm. It's not everything. Quantum physics are actually against most human conceptions, that's why even Einstein ever doubted about quantum physics. To me, quantum physics simply means anything is possible even when the situation is against human perception, human conception and human rationality.

    The logic behind religion is rather simple. How can we know what you just did yesterday? We can't as humans don't have access to yesterday. In order to get to what could possibly happened yesterday, we have to rely on accounts of testimonies. So we can get to know what you did yesterday (or today but a year ago) if a human who maintained a direct contact with you to record down in a form of what you did for us to believe with faith. That's how we approach a truth of this kind which quantum physics has no hope to reach.

    What quantum physics says about what you did in your life on an hourly basis anyway?!!! Quantum physics is futile in this case simply because not everything is made to be accessible to humans. In this case, our own past is made accessible to us. Similarly, religions are about possible truth which are not accessible to humans.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2017
  12. delade

    delade Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2017
    Messages:
    5,844
    Likes Received:
    317
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Gender:
    Male
    Instead of trying to find God in an Established 'Organization', have you thought of reading The Holy Texts for yourself?
     
  13. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2012
    Messages:
    31,872
    Likes Received:
    2,646
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male

    I know that this is only a poll.......
    but the people here in this forum are very bright.... and quite skeptical......

    https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/dr-chaim-tejman-explains-the-origin-of-life.204084/


    Where do you think that intelligence first began?
    Edit

    1. In carbon based simple cells much less than four billion years ago.
      1 vote(s)
      12.5%
    2. *
      In fundamental or nearly fundamental energy.. more than 13.72 billion years ago.
      1 vote(s)
      12.5%

    3. On another planet in the universe somewhere.
      1 vote(s)
      12.5%

    4. In the mind of G-d... who invented all living things.
      4 vote(s)
      50.0%

    5. I am not sure yet.... but I am researching.
      1 vote(s)
      12.5%
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2017

Share This Page