Trump cuts relations with British Ambassador

Discussion in 'United States' started by Doug1943, Jul 9, 2019.

  1. Doug1943

    Doug1943 Well-Known Member Donor

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    I don't know nearly enough about Iran as I should, so I all I will do is put down a marker, so to speak, that I don't think it's right simply to say that Iran was aiming to 'go nuclear' -- in the sense of acquiring nuclear weapons, nor do I think that it's correct to call them the "greatest terrorist supporting nation". The Muslim who stabs you to death, blows you up with a bomb, shoots you, runs you down with a car, is almost always a Sunni. If you happen to be in Afghanistan, he will be given sanctuary and support by the Pakistani government. If not, he probably got his theological training by a Salafist, nurtured by the vile Saudi theocracy.

    My own view -- admittedly based on not much knowledge -- is that the Iranians as a people are split between those who want to join the modern world -- young, urban, educated -- and those who are committed to their particular odious brand of theocracy, many of whom have a material stake in the status quo via corruption.
    The way to prevent Iran from gaining nuclear weapons is to aid the former to grow in numbers, and also in political influence.

    However, I don't know enough to argue this in depth, and in any case it would be a topic for another thread, hopefully with some Iranians taking part.
     
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  2. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    Based on how things have turned out, Nixon should have been impeached for the China thing.
     
  3. Doug1943

    Doug1943 Well-Known Member Donor

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    Well, yes ... I'm sure many of us, watching China's seemingly-inexorable rise without becoming the liberal democracy we were promised it would become, have had that secret thought. Keep them locked up in the genteel poverty of socialism, like Cuba today. Then I wouldn't now be advising my wife's grandchildren to learn Mandarin.

    But in Nixon's defense, I don't think he thought they would actually embrace capitalism as a result of our recognition, just that they would turn even more resolutely against the Russians and not take advantage of our defeat in Vietnam.

    The fact is, no one at that time was a very good predictor of the future. If, in 1975, you had predicted the world of 2019 -- Communism collapsed over the whole Soviet empire, capitalism flourishing in Vietnam and China but with the Communist Party still in charge -- the Shah off his throne and militant theocracy in power in Iran ... the rise of Islamism...the decay of American academia ,,, you would have been laughed off the stage.

    In fact, I don't think anyone has been a very good predictor of the future, especially when it comes to social and political developments. There's a book to be written by someone, which simply takes all the 'futuristic' predictions made over last century or so, and reprints them. If there aren't enough non-fiction ones, they could throw in the future world as 'predicted' by science fiction authors. (I only know of one of the latter who even came close to predicting the internet, and his prediction was a pale shadow of the real thing.)

    It's a paradox, actually: anyone with a knowledge of history cannot be very optimistic right now about the future. But we can take hope in the fact that no one seems able to predict the future.
     
  4. truth and justice

    truth and justice Well-Known Member

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    Why don't you list those terrorist attacks carried out or sponsored by Iran in the last 20 years that makes them "the greatest terrorist supporting nation"
     
  5. Doug1943

    Doug1943 Well-Known Member Donor

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    Yes, I would ask that as well.

    I think the support of terrorists covers, mainly, two things: supporting various Shia tribal groups which are in insurrection against Sunni governments, and
    supporting Hezbollah, who are the most effective enemies of Israel. You might include their supporting various Iraqi Shia groups who resisted the American occupation, but surely there is a huge (usually unconscious) irony in making that claim. (And it's really funny to see that the guy who was our bete noire in Iraq, probably responsible for terrorism inside the country, not just against our forces but against his rivals, Muqtada al-Sadr, is now one of the most decent forces in Iraq -- everything is relative here, of course -- opposing Iranian influence there and working for Sunni-Shia reconciliation. From the Wiki article:

    As for supporting their co-religionists fighting Sunnis, how is that different from a dozen other inter-ethnic wars going on at any one time all over the globe, with both sides usually having justified grievances? 'Terrorism' is the way they do things in the Third World.

    The Israeli/Palestine situation is its own case ... and I think the main Israeli grievance against Hezbollah is that they have been pretty much the only Arabs who have been militarily able to stand up to the Israelis. (The irony is that they were conjured up by the Israeli invasion of Lebanon.) That's a situation where it would be wonderful if the US could help work out some historic compromise -- a secure Israel, a Palestinian state, both greased with American taxpayers' money -- but it looks very unlikely now, sadly.

    But they may also have been behind some other genuine terrorist attacks, in particular some in Argentina. (The Argentine Israelite Mutual Association being the most deadly. It was Argentina, where there is a lot of anti-Semitism among the locals, and the usual corruption and incompetence, so this and other cases were never solved.) But these were in the 90s, when Iran was going through a particularly nasty devolution -- they had finished executing all their indigenous Leftist activists, and then some faction in the government turned to assassinating their own liberal intellectuals, the so-called 'Chain Murders'. But that period ended, and courageous Iranians are still trying to advance democracy there. A good book to read about this is Shiran Ebadi's Iran Awakening. She's a lawyer who in the course of legal investigations got to see the death-list of people to be murdered ... the ones who had been killed had a line through their names ... and she was at the top of the remaining ones!

    There's no doubt that these horrible murdering theocrats deserve to sent to Allah by the most expeditious means possible, but ... the real change must come from within, and it will. I think the current American policy doesn't help this at all, and actually strengthens the worst elements of Iranian society.
     
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  6. glitch

    glitch Well-Known Member

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    Yesterday they attempted to seize a British ship. Their support for terrorism within Iraq has been responsible for the deaths of many American soldiers. They also promote terrorism in Yemen and Syria. Iran funds the terrorism against Israel from Hamas, Hezbollah and Palestinian Islamic Jihad.
     
  7. ibobbrob

    ibobbrob Well-Known Member

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    My understanding is that many ambassadors have that impression of Trump. How is that possible? Maybe because it is true?
     
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  8. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Questions: Why does Trump think cutting off this ambassador will change anyone's opinion of Trump?


    How will it change Britain's opinion of Trump?

    How many ambassadors will he send home? :) He can't send them all home ….
     
  9. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    :applause::applause::applause: YES!
     
  10. BillRM

    BillRM Well-Known Member

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    My question is where in a nation of only 60 millions will they find someone to be ambassador to the US that have a higher opinion of Trump?
     
  11. AKS

    AKS Banned

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    Because that would take more thought and analysis than aping sean hannity. I'd expect most trumpers, based on their support of trump, to be anti-thinking in most cases.
     
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  12. AKS

    AKS Banned

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    Not likely that they will even try. They'll just tighten up their commsec. Everyone knows that the former ambassador was spot on in his evaluation of trump.
     
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  13. BillRM

    BillRM Well-Known Member

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    Likely Obama would had invited the man to the White House for a beer summit.
     
  14. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Except I doubt that ambassador's assessment of Obama would be the same as his assessment of tRump.
     
  15. jay runner

    jay runner Well-Known Member

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    What makes you think that Trump thinks that anyone's opinion will change?

    Maybe he just enjoys putting on the pressure so the leaker will be found out and punished.

    That's good sport in my opinion.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019
  16. Doug1943

    Doug1943 Well-Known Member Donor

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    He didn't do this, in order to change anyone's opinion of him. In fact, this has just confirmed everyone's opinion of him.
    He did it because he was angry. If there was any thinking at all behind it, it was "they won't do it again" -- not "they won't think it again". But I doubt that there was thinking behind it at all.

    Now ... this particular incident is no big deal. The worry is that some maniac in some, er, toilet-waste country, will goad him verbally, and accompany it with some sort of military provocation, like buzzing an American warship, and his response will be based on his ego, not on a cold rational calculation of how to respond. If said toilet-waste country is allied to a real power, then things could get out of hand. WWI started because a Duke got assassinated by a nationalist -- it's an occupational hazard of being a duke, and it was the Balkans, after all, but one thing led to another and ...

    In fact, so far, he's been pretty good about NOT getting us stuck into any new tar-babies, but you never know when this might change. [Please, Russians, fake an email from John Bolton commenting on Trump's manhood or something, and get him out of the White House. Not to be replaced by some sissy -- someone able to calculate self-interest will do, who can make credible threats but someone you know where you're at with. Someone like this guy.]
     
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  17. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    LOL! Oh, ya, Trump is such a honest guy he wants leakers punished...hilarious...he only got his snowflake feelings hurt and lashed out like a spoiled two year old...



    Ya, the Fascists didn't like people speaking their minds and loved to punish them...it was good sport to them..
     
  18. Dispondent

    Dispondent Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I support the prosecution of anyone in the US that leaks classified information, but Trump seems to have removed the liberal infiltrators who were causing so much of that, prior to that was Obama's inability to control his administration. Traitors like Snowden and Manning should hang...
     
  19. Doug1943

    Doug1943 Well-Known Member Donor

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    Manning is one sick puppy, and Snowden is actually a pretty principled guy. He was/is a naive idealist. Here's some interesting information about him:
    Source.

    The real problem was letting people like this have access to sensitive information in the first place. Manning should have been easy to screen out, but Snowden, as you can see from the above, was a bit different. You want intelligent people in your security apparatus, and they are often quirky.

    Of course, it's very ironic that someone like him is now under the 'protection' of the Russian government. A few years ago he criticized them openly ... if he's wise, he'll not do that again.

    He did immense damage. However, I think that some of the things he revealed about the surveillance program are indeed abuses and should be changed.
     
  20. CourtJester

    CourtJester Well-Known Member

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    Oh, I certainly agree. Beyond a doubt the American people should never find out that our government is lying to us! But leaks are probably irrelevant now since we have a President who lives in reality where the difference between lies and truth is meaningless.
     
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  21. Dispondent

    Dispondent Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If you don't want a government that lies to you, don't elect liars like Obama and Clinton, or any of the few liars on the right. Demand better candidates, don't condone treason...
     
  22. Yakamaru

    Yakamaru Well-Known Member

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    Oh, I read/saw this when it first happened.

    I find it funny how the ambassador trashtalks the POTUS for the POTUS to just tell the guy to sod off afterwards.

    If you can't keep your personal views out of your professional/public position, you're doing things wrong.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019
  23. AKS

    AKS Banned

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    umm what??? The ambassador wasn't trash talking to anyone, he was reporting the state of the trump administration to his government.
     
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  24. Gary/Dubya

    Gary/Dubya Well-Known Member

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    It's like talking quantum mechanics to a two year old.

    Why in hell, should I care if some Ambassador from any country on Earth likes me, my people or any member of my government? What is wrong with appreciating they are here in my country? There is wisdom in keeping your friends close and your enemies closer.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019
  25. Yakamaru

    Yakamaru Well-Known Member

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    Should check his Twitter feed then, mate. It's not exactly painting a pretty picture of the ambassador.

    I don't care what he says in private about Trump. If you're going to trashtalk someone in public on an account that is public and used to represent you as any sort of official, Trump is 100% within his rights to fire back at him and have him removed for not being able to keep his private and professional lives separate.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019

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