UK Police - Is 8 minutes an acceptable response time?

Discussion in 'Security & Defenses' started by chris155au, Jul 26, 2017.

  1. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    The recent stabbing attacks in London were only stopped when armed police finally arrived 8 minutes later. Now, we don't know anything about what general duties police were in the area or if there were police who attempted to fight the attackers with batons and pepper spray, however, I guarantee you that if general duties police were armed, the attackers would've been killed long before armed police arrived. Keep in mind that it was a Saturday night in the middle of the city, so police are always out in force. Would it have taken 8 minutes to resolve in a major American city in a night life hot spot? I don't think so.

    So the question. Is 8 minutes an acceptable response time to kill killers?
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2017
  2. waltky

    waltky Well-Known Member

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    Around here its optimal...

    ... anywhere between 20-45 mins. is usual...

    ... 2 1/2 hours if you call the burglary unit.
     
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  3. cerberus

    cerberus Banned Donor

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    I'd be surprised to the point of disbelief if I got a response in 8 days! :blankstare:
     
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  4. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    I think you misunderstood. I'm not asking if 8 minutes is an acceptable response time for a specialised police unit to enter a scene. I'm asking if it is an acceptable response time to kill killers.
     
  5. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    8 minutes wasn’t the response time, 8 minutes was the time from the first call to the police that something was happening to the incident being entirely resolved. I believe the actual response time between the armed units being activated and them arriving on scene was 1 or 2 minutes. Overall it was an amazingly rapid response, though involving elements of luck regarding when and where the incident occurred etc.

    There aren’t actually that many beat police officers on the streets even at that time and place, so I’m not convinced it is likely they would have been able to respond any more quickly and that would probably require similar luck relating to officers being in the right place at the right time. Also, the specialist units don’t simply involve officers with firearms but co-ordinated teams with specific tactical training to deal with exactly that kind of incident. Even if individual normally trained officers with firearms had been able to respond more quickly, that doesn’t mean they’d have been able to resolve the situation as quickly, effectively and without further harm to civilians.
     
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  6. vman12

    vman12 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Of course not.

    The only reason they got there in 8 minutes was that they were on high alert from the Manchester Bombings.

    Many of the unarmed police actually ran away from the attackers, which is the same thing that happened during the London riots.

    If anything big goes down, the police are going to fall back and try to form a perimeter, leaving everyone inside that kill zone completely defenseless.
     
  7. vman12

    vman12 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It wasn't luck, they were on extremely high alert from the Manchester bombing. Normally the death toll would probably have been a lot higher.

    It was reported that the unarmed police were running away from the attackers.
     
  8. RiaRaeb

    RiaRaeb Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    And so the ill informed speculation begins, the facts are the police dealt with the incident in 8 minutes. No ifs, no buts, no maybe's.

    What an incredible police force we have in the UK.
     
  9. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Wrong. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...ere-dead-timeline-of-the-london-bridge-attack
    I'd say that's probably accurate, but it shouldn't have taken a specialised unit to kill killers.
    It should really only take one single officer to kill one guy with a knife. Three killers should be killed by three officers. If all three killers were next to each other, it should actually only take one officer worth their salt. It should only take one amateur civilian gunman, let alone an officer. Its not as if it was an army of killers! Also, we know that the attackers weren't exactly spread across miles and miles, as we can see from two of the pieces of sh*t lying dead just metres apart. And If during those 8 minutes, not one single general duties officer was in shooting range of at least one of the cu**s, then London has a serious policing issue.
    Yeah, they're essentially the SWAT equivalent. The difference is, in the US, SWAT would not be required to launch an assault to take out three guys with knives! It should not take specialised "tactical training" to deal with this incident.They would've barely used 10% of their training to deal with this incident. They could've killed the guys with a pistol, drunk, with one eye closed, while hoping on one leg!
    I'm only assuming that you're basing that on the scenario that normal armed police had dealt with the situation alone, with no specialised unit? Just so we're clear, I'm not suggesting that the specialised unit did not need to respond too.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2017
  10. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    How do we know this? Witness accounts?
     
  11. RiaRaeb

    RiaRaeb Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Since we are into speculation, is it not fair to say that these men would likely to of been armed with something more than knives if they had been in the US?
     
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  12. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Laughable and pathetic if true. (And sad.)
     
  13. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, I can't figure out if you're being sarcastic or not. If your not, then please tell us how taking 8 minutes to kill three knifemen is such an amazing achievement. And who is saying "ifs, buts & maybe's?" I don't think anyone is disputing that it took 8 minutes are they?
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2017
  14. RiaRaeb

    RiaRaeb Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No I am nor being sarcastic, 8 minutes is an incredibly quick time.
     
  15. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    What am I speculating on exactly? My argument is based on exactly what took place.

    Absolutely, no question! They are more likely to have guns, given the Islamic terror attacks in the US such as Orlando. However, that doesn't weaken my argument, but only strengthens it! (so thanks for that) If they had guns in the US, they probably would STILL have been killed by general duties officers in many cases, given that there have been many stories of CITIZENS killing gunmen!
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2017
  16. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    By what reasoning? Are you saying it is quick for a specialised unit, or quick for the attackers to be killed?
     
  17. RiaRaeb

    RiaRaeb Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You are speculating that the incident would of been more quickly resolved if general police had guns.
     
  18. RiaRaeb

    RiaRaeb Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Both.
     
  19. vman12

    vman12 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    http://dailycaller.com/2017/06/03/m...-scene-of-terror-stabbings-at-borough-market/

    Happened in the 2011 London riots too.

    It's SOP. If police lose control over an area or can't stop it (carrying sticks vs knives I guess), they fall back for their own safety.

    Police aren't going to put themselves at great risk to save others, even though people have that expectation.

    We saw this in the US with the LA riots, after hurricane Katrina, etc.

    When something really bad happens, you're on your own until the police with guns get there and feel they have the upper hand.
     
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  20. vman12

    vman12 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    How does any attack end? When the attackers are shot.
     
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  21. RiaRaeb

    RiaRaeb Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Very few knife attacks in the UK end up with anyone being shot.
     
  22. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Are you serious? What is a more effective way to kill someone? With a gun, or without a gun?
     
  23. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That backs up what I said; 8 minutes is the time between the first emergency call going through to the central control room to the attackers being stopped. There would have been time between the control room to assess the calls and activating the armed response unit and time between the armed officers arriving on scene and actually shooting to the attackers. Their response time was much shorter than 8 minutes.

    Not necessarily in this case (though of course nobody knew that until it was all over). In this case, the attackers could have even been apprehended by officers with tazers and batons in the right circumstances. There will be situations (and may well have been elements in this incident – we don’t have those details) where the specialist training and co-ordination of speciality team mean they get resolved more quickly, safely and effectively than without them. That’s why they exist in the first place; it isn’t just about having guns.

    Again, possibly in this example, not necessarily in all. I don’t think you can assert that the indecent would have automatically been ended sooner with the only difference being routine arming of UK police officers. I also think you’re grossly underestimating the difficulties officers on the ground face in incidents like this.

    You seem to be assuming that it would be possible for this incident to have gone from initial emergency calls to resolution in less than the 8 minutes it did take. You’ve not presented anything to convince me that is the case.
     
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  24. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Wait, don't they have pepper spray and/or stun gun and not just a baton?

    Then they're pretty useless when it comes to protecting people from harm.

    Wait, what happened here? Unarmed police in the US?
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2017
  25. RiaRaeb

    RiaRaeb Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    And now you are into if, buts and maybe's.

    If the people of the US want their police force armed and their general populace armed, that is fine by me, it is your country.
    The people of the UK, do not have the same gun culture as the US, there is no great movement to arm police in the UK.

    What you are trying to do is compare apples to oranges, two different cultures, two different ways of dealing with things.
     

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