And trisomy 21 is exactly not an example for this, what you would know if you would read what others say to you. You have no points. That's it. You are you - then comes nothing - then comes you - then comes nothing - then comes you again. What about to buy a dog? There are lots of things someone is able to learn from dogs.
What for heavens sake do you say here in the typical hateful way of the anglo-american world? I spoke about that Africa suffered about 150,000 to 70,000 years ago under an extreme dry weather. Less than 2000 people survived. A result of this is the very small bandwidth of the human genome. By the way: When I said in my life the first time I think genes of the homo Neandertaliensis are part of our gene code I was called an idiot, because this is impossible. And I heard the gene code of men is indeed much more nearer to the chimpanzee genome than to the genome of human women. But this makes chimps not to human beings. Nevertheless "Alf", an example for an ET, is a kind of human being - a child of god - independent from any biology.
Perhaps that I hate it meanwhile to speak with people from the English speaking world, because every little comment becomes a war of words and ideologies? In the beginning I just simple liked to know what someone thought about when he used the word "chaos" - specially I liked to know where this chaos is - and I tried to correct a wrong view about order and disorder from the user "Swenson". Later he had a gigantic problem to see that trisomy 21 is not an example for this what he said. I general I miss a universal view to the problems of order, disorder, chaos, evolution, natural science and religion. Order (machine minded thoughts) is for example often deadly while "disorder" (creative chaos) is often full of life and real disorder is absolute deadly. Where's our orientation - where's a possible way besides all empty phrases here?
I would say it is. I need an example where a person has more DNA than their parents, and trisomy 21 is an example of this. I have very specifically the points I make. Any other points, about abortions or buying dogs, is at best a red herring.
According to who? "When combined with a normal gamete from the other parent, the first, fourth and fifth are lethal, leading to spontaneous abortion. The second, combined with a normal gamete from the other parent, gives rise to a typical child. The third leads to a translocation Down syndrome child. The last becomes a translocation carrier, like the parent." (source) I've provided two sources for my claim, you have just provided insults.
Agreed. Most of the problems in the world stem from a desire of people to exert a great degree of control over the actions of others. Respect for individual liberty (the foundation of all western democracies as per classical liberalism) is dying. This principle is also the rock on which the teachings of Christ are based. This is then a somewhat "holy" union of secular and religious ideology. As such you would think that humans would do a better job of following this principle.
It's not my problem that you are not able to understand most simple thoughts while you think the same time you are able to understand the very most complex processes. Trisomie 21 is not inheritable! So it is not an example for your ideas. I read some hours ago for example an article about evolution of very simple structures in bacteria. Within only 33000 generations a mutation enabled a special kind of elementary bio-chemical behavior. But 5 other mutations were necessary for the result too. 2 of them had happened about 2 million years ago - and it seems both mutations had not a positive or negative effect during this long time for this species of bacteria. Just for fun I calculated how many years this generations would had been when this bacteria would had been human beings and a generation would had been 25 years. The result was 8454 times the age of the universe (=13.8 billion years).
I have given you several sources, what you've provided is indistinguishable from you just making stuff up. You have given no indication that what you say is true. Merely questioning my ability to understand things does nothing to hide the fact that you fail to actually address my points. The speed of mutations varies wildly. You need a new flu shot every year because of mutations in the flu virus. Indeed, the speed of mutations depends on many things which in turn depends on mutations, so the speed of mutations today doesn't necessarily tell you anything about speeds of mutations in the past. For instance, for most of humanity's evolution, the generations are going to have been closer to 1 year than 25 (and even less for most of the essentials). Even the flu doesn't change every year because that's the maximum speed mutations can occur at, that mutation rate has simply been the most efficient at surviving, changing often enough to stay alive, and rarely enough that many new individuals can be produced (of course, there is more to this as well, the yearly change means the new version is ready around winter, when human immune systems are at their worst and so on). Most species today will have had a pretty stable environment for a long time, so they will have evolved to stifle unnecessary mutations, leading to slower rates today than in the past. Although you have again refrained from providing your sources, the goto experiment is usually https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._coli_long-term_evolution_experiment It's possible that's what you were referring to. It showed a difference amounting to speciation in 31.000 generations, which at 25 years/generation would take 775.000 years, which is at least on the order of magnitude of the 300.000 years suggested for the last speciation humans went through. Add to that the fact that generations are probably more like 16 years for early humans (cave men probably didn't wait to finish college and get a job before getting children etc.), and a slew of other factors (mutation rates will depend on changes in environment, sexual reproduction etc.) as well as the fact that humans have not speciated yet (the 300.000 years is since the last speciation, not between that speciation and the next, we don't know when the next will occur) and time scales are not unreasonable. There are many other factors involved, and I wouldn't want to give the impression that this is more than a very high level estimate, but it shows that experiments are roughly consistent with the current understanding of how evolution happened.
Sorry for taking a long time to answer. Actually, they have been observed to take place to the point that can be called equivalent to speciation in about 30.000 generations, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._coli_long-term_evolution_experiment which is roughly consistent with the time scales suggested for human evolution (although it should be noted that there are many other factors involved)
2 million years of generations of bacteria are much more then 33.000 generations - I said not 31.000 but 33.000 - and I said my result was 8454 times the age of the universe were the number of generations if a generation would had been 25 years. So 8454*13.8 billion years / 25 years = 4.666.608.000.000 generations were two mutations without any effect - then the bacteria were able to use this mutations because a scientist made an experiment, where he expected to show that the evolution is exactly doing what he says. And the evolution did what this man "prayed" for. From my point of view I am not astonished about this - because I believe in spirituality. From my point of view I am astonished about the long time where nothing in the world was able to say anything about what this two "stupid" mutations were made for. And do me now please the favor no to try to win against me in your strange game which I do not understand. You wan. Happy Easter again
You never provided a reference to what you were talking about, so I have no way of using that as a reference point. I used another experiment (or possibly another interpretation of the same experiment) which saw speciation in 31.000-31.500 generations. I also gave the source for this experiment, so you can double check the numbers as well as my interpretation of the numbers. 31.000 generations times 25 years/generation gives you 775.000 years. I don't know anything about these mutations, since you haven't given a source, but I'm not convinced your interpretation of the probabilities hold up. For instance, if the mutations had no impact on the bacterias' survivability, then there was no evolutionary pressure, so the natural selection part of evolution (which is greatly responsible for the time scales involved) was not at play, making this an unfair comparison. I have several similar concerns, but since you have given no references, I can't verify that you've done anything right.
A generation of bacteria is about 20 minutes. This are within a day 72 generations and within a year 26,280 generations. So 33,000 generations are about 1.25 years - and 2 million years lifetime of bacteria are 52,560,000,000 generations. 52,560,000,000 generations * 25 years = 1,314,000,000,000 = 1314 billion years are the lifetime of human beings. 1314 billion/13.8 billion = 95.2 ... . About 95 ages of universes - and not 8454. So I was wrong when I calculated this number. But are you now really as intelligent as you think and I am really as stupid as you think? (What's seems to be important for you because in your "logic" shows my stupidity to you that god is not existing) No! I just simple made an unimportant mistake - and you just simple did not find this mistake. The problem is still the same. The bio-chemical change of the behavior of the bacteria came after 33,000 generations under best conditions in an experiment, where this bio-chemical change was expected to occur. But all together it needed 5 mutations for this change. 2 of this mutations had happened 2 million years ago (52,560,000,000 generations). ¿Comprende? And now I will tell you again what I am astonished about. I'm astonished about this 2 "stupid" mutations which had existed "senseless" since 52,560,000,000 generations - what would be about 95 times the lifetime of the universe in a "human" dimension. It's a German source in my bathroom. I read such crazy things there. In my bathroom are also black holes and other things. Mathematics for example. Very mysterious subject. Totally spiritual. The holy grail is on the top: a book with the name "bible". Very worn - but an excellent book. I do not remember a better one. You are not able to verify anything at all. And now not to forget the most important "experiment" of the last 2000 years. Professor god and his son made it. Was successful. He's risen. Happy Easter. You will see what will happen now. Either in the next second or in some billion and more generations.
Your analysis is flawed. First - comparing a single celled organism to a multi-cellular organism is problematic. The second is that you do not provide your source. The third is that it is a fact that beneficial genetic changes withing bacterial happen on a regular basis .. within one generation. Bacteria have "plasmids" - little packets of nucleic acids that give that bacteria certain abilities. Bacteria are cannibals and when they eat other bacteria they pick up these plasmids and gain that ability.
Which analysis? Single cell organisms existed more than 3 billion years before they "mutated" - or what else really had happened, besides such empty phrases, which suggest to be knowledge - and became multi-cellular organisms. You will not understand it. It's a German source. Believe what I say or let it be - that's not important for me. To speak here about the details is not possible. And why do you say this to me? This "cannibalism" makes it only much more astonishing how a senseless very little part of a genome is able to survive billions of generations until it is able to make a biologist happy.
As usual you ignore the part of my post which contradicts your narrative - that bacteria have beneficial mutations in a single generation. Your claim that single cell organisms existed for 3 billion years before they mutated is false. You misunderstood what you were reading.
I'm not convinced you have interpreted the statement about the mutations correctly to begin with. People make unimportant mistakes all the time, and we can't blame each other for that, but it also means that in order to fully comprehend a statement, we need to know the information that goes into making that statement. Until you have provided your sources, you might as well be lying. I'm not saying you are lying, I'm just saying you should understand that your statements don't really carry any weight without justifications. Happy easter you too. In hindsight perhaps. Happy orthodox easter.
A good reason for to start to think. Most people have forgotten how to live with living creatures, with living systems and that, in turn, is the reason why man, whenever he comes into contact with nature, threatens to kill the natural system in which and from which he live. Konrad Lorenz
Well, you refuse to give me information to think about. If I were to just accept whatever you say, that would hardly be thinking for myself.
Stupid, what you said here. Very stupid. A friend of me thought about to study the history of the daily life in our own local cultures. So what do you think was his first step? What did he do first before he started to study?
Posting a video of someone singing opera does not change the fact that your claim that bacteria did not mutate for 3 billion years is an absurd falsehood.
I hope you don't mind my asking but your avatar... and your name here..... has me curious if you are perhaps a fan of: Mark Gungor Tale of Two Brains Full (2,038,888 views) My wife and I watched four CD's by him a few weeks ago... and he was hilarious!
I did not answer to this nonsense because it is nonsense what you say here - and you could know this on your own. You answer so stupid and so aggressive because of your English enculturation and socialization. People of my culture normally do not like to blame others in public. Sure existed also defect mutated genomes of bacteria for more than 3 billion years. But multicellular organisms - this is what we call normally "life" - exists just since about 750 million years. I don't think you know concrete what kind of defect in the genome of what kind of cell had caused this. We came all from this "Eve"-cell. This "godly" structure is in general very "popular" in lots of ways of the universe. Even the universe itself for example came from only one little point. It seems to me god often works in the way that a completely unimportant little thing in an nearly endless ocean - or even a nothing on its own - grows and becomes suddenly important or even perfect - from one plank-time or second to the other. A revelation.
