What are your views on abortion?

Discussion in 'Abortion' started by Daggdag, Oct 19, 2020.

?

Which best describes your view on abortion

  1. A woman has the right to choose to get an abortion with no limitations.

    27 vote(s)
    58.7%
  2. Abortion should be illegal after the first trimester

    7 vote(s)
    15.2%
  3. Abortion should be illegal except to preserve the health and life of the mother.

    11 vote(s)
    23.9%
  4. Abortion should be illegal in all circumstances.

    1 vote(s)
    2.2%
  1. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You're making a specific analogy, and then trying to conflate that with a broad category using that as an analogy here.

    I think that is kind of logically disingenuous.

    I have already explained to you how the general category of sin is not automatically analogous to abortion when it comes to the legal sphere.

    Your specific example could be a more interesting one, but that is still not a direct attack against the body or property of another human being, unless one can view a human being (a spouse) as property of another, within the legal sphere. Which is probably the reason why the law takes a hands-off approach there.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2020
  2. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Pro-lifers don't advocate for abortion to be illegal because it is a sin.


    (And wow, I just realized how language can create ambiguous meanings.
    What was meant is that pro-lifers do advocate for abortion to be illegal, but not for the reason that it is a sin.
    Hope that resolves any possible ambiguity)


    Pro-lifers don't [advocate for abortion to be illegal because it is a sin]
    vs
    Pro-lifers don't [advocate for abortion to be illegal] because it is a sin

    Two completely different possible meanings.

    The second statement could be rearranged to a different form and still retain the same meaning:
    Because it is a sin, Pro-lifers don't advocate for abortion to be illegal.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2020
  3. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    It's your opinion that it is to do with bodily autonomy.
     
  4. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Yes, abortion is that different....

    The "state " cannot force people to do anything ...especially use their body PARTS to sustain the life of another..
     
  5. CCitizen

    CCitizen Well-Known Member

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    I guess so.

    I am against SJWs dictating their morality to people. I am against Conservatives imposing their version of ethics. The Law can not dictate Ethics.
     
  6. CCitizen

    CCitizen Well-Known Member

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    One reason I dislike Totalitarian Left is that they are tyrannical enforcers of their values.

    I hope Conservatives will not try to enforce this ethics.
     
  7. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    So how is killing a braindead coma patient any different to killing an unborn baby?
     
  8. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    If you weren't ashamed of your position, you would've already said what you think the limit should be! Using your logic, there should be no restrictions!:roflol:
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2020
  9. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Sure I can admit that, but what the hell does that have to do with abortion?
     
  10. Hey Nonny Mouse

    Hey Nonny Mouse Active Member

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    The law already forbids the killing of people. The big disagreement with abortion is at what point the fetus becomes a person with a right not to be killed. Almost everyone agrees that it occurs at some point in the pregnancy, but they don't agree on when.
     
  11. CCitizen

    CCitizen Well-Known Member

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    Ddifferent Societies have different laws on forbidden killing. It is impossible and unpractical to ban abortion.

    In many Societies up to XIXth Century infanticide was common. Given economic reality of that time it was sort of understandable -- even though it was extremely unethical.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2020
  12. CCitizen

    CCitizen Well-Known Member

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    In Modern World, euthanasia is an EVIL which can be avoided and it is forbidden by Law.
     
  13. Hey Nonny Mouse

    Hey Nonny Mouse Active Member

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    True.

    Do you agree that it is good that infanticide is illegal in our society?
     
  14. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Why is it evil but abortion is not? Can abortion not be avoided?
     
  15. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Looks like I gotcha!
     
  16. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    It's at birth when a fetus becomes a person..
     
  17. CCitizen

    CCitizen Well-Known Member

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    Definitely. Given economic reality 250 or more years ago, it would have been very difficult to abolish infanticide.

    Banning abortion is like banning adultery -- it should be pointed out that for many people abortion is murder, but it should not be legally banned.
     
  18. CCitizen

    CCitizen Well-Known Member

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    For millennia, infanticide was an acceptable form of birth control.

    About half of all children died by the age 5 anyway. Unwanted children were neglected, and thus their death was assured.

    Horrible for modern people even to comprehend.
     
  19. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

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    My delay in answering is not a sign of your, "getting," me, only of life's other calls on my time & focus, as well as my involvement in a number of other ongoing conversations here, at PF.

    Let me begin with the opening flaw in this thread. It begins:

    What are your views on abortion?


    But Daggdag then goes on, in his OP, to say:

    How one, individually, feels about abortion is fundamentally different from prescribing the beliefs that other people should have to comply with. Are we at least on the same page with that concept, that neither you, or me, or Daggdag have any pretext to claim that OTHERS should abide by our own feelings, provided that those feelings are not based on objective evidence; with a provable argument, one could make the case, at any rate, it should be manifested in our laws (which would THEN apply to everyone)?

    So, even if I agreed with your personal view, that would have no relevance for anyone else. In fact, since we are both men, our views would only go so far, w/ regard to what any woman we impregnated would decide to do. Any light in-between our views, yet? I ask because this is a different argument than, "what enforced limitations should be imposed upon the practice of abortion?" You understand this difference, yes?

    So I had asked for YOUR opinion on the matter. Your answer, above, provided NO SPECIFICS that would even suffice as a guide for others to follow; that is, you state that you DO NOT BELIEVE that human life begins AT CONCEPTION, yet say that all abortion (except in rape/threat to mother's life) should be prohibited.

    This explains why making this reply was not at the top of my list. That is, you haven't really progressed our debate, because you have failed to do what you consistently pressed me to do: draw the line of legality, based on when a fetus becomes an individual, a person. In fact, you even say that you haven't really, "thought about it." May I suggest that doing so should be prerequisite to putting forth an argument?

    In lieu of having a rational alternative, it seems to me the only justifiable option is to accept the definition at which the Supreme Court arrived: when the fetus is no longer intrinsically part of the mother, when it could, w/ the help of the latest medical technology, potentially live without her. They determined this point to be at between 24 & 28 weeks. So after that point, it already is illegal. Any argument that this law is not enforced, again, is separate from the debate in this thread.

    Since medical progress, according to the wikipedia article I previously posted, has moved that bar down to 22 weeks for earliest viability, I would actually be in favor of moving the entire deadline down by two weeks, i.e., to between 22 and 26 weeks, because I'm not happy with the idea of abortions right at the line of personhood. I would favor making the entire 3rd trimester off-limits. But this is where things get more complicated because of the efforts of anti-abortion advocates.

    With the AVAILABILITY of abortion SERVICES, I don't see there being any credible reason that any woman who really did not want to carry her child to term, would not have sufficient opportunity to take care of it prior to that point. However, regulatory persecutions of abortion providers has significantly reduced the number of clinics in some states. I think there is one state that now has none. Another state, I think, only has one. This, ironically, could be used to argue for women, at least in those states, requiring MORE time for exercising their abortion option.

    As for women who have very irregular periods, & who may legitimately go 6 months before realizing that they are pregnant, it does not seem overly onerous, at that point, for the law to require these women to go the last bit of the way of what would seem to be-- if it had gone unnoticed that far-- a pretty easy pregnancy.

    And here we still are, waiting for you give an argument why, not just you feel that abortion is wrong, but why others should also be required to respect this perceivable line (which you've, also, not yet drawn). As far as I can recall, your only argument has been that it is murder. But, by law, it is not murder, because the fetus is not considered a person before it is potentially viable outside of its mother's womb. And all I'm doing here is repeating the ground we've already covered. We'd left off with it being your time to offer some argument of personhood prior to the standard that has already been set-- if you want to stick with the, "murder," rationale-- or else provide a supporting argument for a pre-personhood, abortion cut-off line. Your merely saying, "I don't think abortion should be allowed..." is not presenting an argument. Do you understand what I'm saying? Barring an actual, reason-based argument, you'll need to wait, now, for my reply on the topic as a whole, as opposed to getting my responses to your unsupported, personal feelings. You are entitled to those; so is EVERYONE ELSE.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2020
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  20. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, "wheel of Fortune?"
     
  21. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I personally feel that murder and slavery should be illegal, but that's just my personal opinion...
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2020
  22. Daggdag

    Daggdag Well-Known Member

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    Autocorrect is dumb
     
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  23. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Fair enough.

    @Daggdag was simply giving his opinion. What's wrong with that?

    Absolutely.

    Yeah, I would certainly hope so.

    Yes, I do understand this difference.

    The problem is, that what you quoted in your reply was not my full post. You missed out my challenge to you - how convenient! After you said:

    "While there is life in a fetus, it is utterly dependent on the mother for that life, for the better part of its embryonic journey. Hence it is inseparable from her, in its personhood. That is, until it can exist independently, the fetus is PART OF THE MOTHER."

    I said:


    "Then you should also agree with this: While there is life in a comatose person, they are utterly dependent on the machines for that life. Hence they are inseparable from the machines, in their personhood. That is, until it can exist independently, the person is dependent on the machines."


    So do you agree with that?

    Well a human life FORM ls created at conception. Do you agree with that?

    You are obviously unaware that Roe v Wade doesn't make abortion illegal after 28 weeks, but rather permits the states to decide what happens after that point. I'm not even American and I know this! Do you live in the US? If so, where the hell have you been? Did you not hear about the New York abortion law a couple of years ago, which made abortion legal up until birth? I'm not even American and I heard about this!

    Do you believe that abortion is a matter of womens' bodily rights and that women have the right to their bodies and therefore abortion is okay?

    Prior to what point?

    I don't know why you talk in terms of "the law to require" women to do something. Women can do whatever they want to their bodies! That's their right! They just don't have the right to receive any medical treatment on their body under the government's health system, just like there is no right to cancer treatment. However, that wouldn't stop them pursuing a number of alternatives, which would obviously not be recommended.

    When did I say that people should be required to respect my opinion?

    Nope. EQUIVALENT TO murder.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2020
  24. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    You've forgotten what you meant?
     
  25. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    They are ...but Anti-Choicers, by wanting to make abortion illegal and take away women's right to bodily autonomy, are all for slavery which is taking away a person's bodily autonomy...
     

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