What should the proper protocol be? The concept of self-defense

Discussion in 'Gun Control' started by kazenatsu, Oct 8, 2020.

  1. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    This goes to show that you can be legally killed in some situations even if what you did was not illegal.

    A noise complaint from an annoyed neighbor resulted in cops shooting and killing a man within five seconds of him opening his front door.
    Ryan Whitaker opened the door holding a gun in his right hand which is legal in Arizona but it made the cops fear for their lives.
    However, the cops never gave him a chance to put the gun down which he appeared to be trying to do when one cop shot him in the back three times.
    "Why did you guys shoot him?" Whitaker's girlfriend, Brandee Nees, yelled as she stepped into the doorway.
    "He just pulled a gun on us, ma'am," Phoenix police officer Jeff Cooke said.
    "Because it's dark and someone just knocked on the door," Nees responded.
    When Phoenix police officer John Ferragamo asked Nees if she and Whitaker had been fighting, she told him they were only playing video games.​

    https://newsmaven.io/pinacnews/cops...plaint-over-video-game-AsvFt-AHpkeQlcgNj5qiTA

    This story is already being discussed in another thread right now. But I'd like to focus on something else. What should the "protocol" be in such situations?
    To be able to understand what should be in situations like this is to better truly understand the logical framework within the concept of self-defense.

    If one party has adequate reason to feel threatened, they can pull out a gun.
    But that can be adequate reason for another party to feel threatened, and they too can pull out a gun, point the gun, and possibly shoot.
    In some situations it could be legal for both parties to shoot each other.

    And that is exactly what happened in this story.

    If police see anyone pull out a gun, they are likely going to shoot to kill.
    This is entirely understandable.

    There have been numerous situations in the news where police entered a home, and the persons inside the home at the time for some reason did not realize that the persons entering their home were police, and then a deadly and tragic confrontation transpired. Even though there was no crime, someone was killed.

    One reason why no-knock warrants should only be used in the rarest of situations. And also one of the reasons Libertarians have criticized many of the unnecessary laws that exist, because they can sometimes lead to situations like this.

    When someone is intentionally shot and killed, there is an inherent human instinct and emotion to want to find someone to blame, to believe some person must have done something illegal to cause it. But that is not always the case. In some situations, no one may be at fault, and no one may broken the law.

    But my question for you all to try to think about (it's a really difficult subject to try to think about), is what should the proper protocol be in these type of situations? What should each side do to "be in the right"?
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2020
  2. Buri

    Buri Well-Known Member

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    First off, do not answer the door at night. Unless it's someone you know, the odds are good things won't happen.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2020
    modernpaladin, pitbull and Have at it like this.
  3. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    when cops see a gun, it's a instant free pass on killing you

    let's see what happens to these cops, any bets?

    agree on no-knock warrants, they are abused for sure
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2020
  4. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    just walking by your window with a gun is enough to get you killed by a cop

    if one owns a gun, best hope it's only seen by criminals, not cops
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2020
  5. Richard The Last

    Richard The Last Well-Known Member

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  6. pitbull

    pitbull Well-Known Member

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    Not when they see it, but when you grab at it.
    Everyone wants to come home alive.
    Even if he has such a dangerous job like a policeman.
     
    Buri likes this.
  7. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    if it's in your hands, how do you grab at it, it's already in your hands, this man was raising his other hand and lowering the gun to put it down

    all the cop had to do is say he feared for his life.. free pass, even if the video shows the fear was unfounded

    being around a cop with a gun is dangerous.... you may not go home to your family
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2020
  8. pitbull

    pitbull Well-Known Member

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    It's very dangerous to have a weapon in hand (doesn't have to be a firearm) when you meet the police.
    Better drop it immediately and follow the policeman's instructions.
     
  9. drluggit

    drluggit Well-Known Member Donor

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    I have a couple thoughts here. If law enforcement show up, and knock, and identify, but don't let you verify they are in fact police (video shows police moved out of sight lines from the peep hole.) it is lawful, and appropriate to have a weapon in hand, likely loaded when you, the occupant, homeowner, etc, open the door. If, once you are asked, or told, by police to put the weapon down, you should. Of course there is still no guarantee that these are in fact police. But, were it me, I would follow the commands. I also have home surveillance, so I would have checked to see who might be there first. But in the case of this apartment building complex, this wasn't available. In the instance you mentioned, it clearly appears that dude was trying to put the weapon on the ground when super cop unloaded on him. That, to me, is intentional homicide, likely second degree murder. The copy who shot should have been charged, and filed for for 2nd degree murder. (not sure if this did or did not get a charge.)

    Which is different than, as has been asserted, first by the boyfriend himself, and then by ballistics that it was Brianna Taylor who fired at LPD officers, then, I suggest that her having fired into the door to hit the LDP officer created the necessary fear for life these officers endured. I believe the grand jury correctly decided this.

    For police, I believe that you should try to deescalate, but must be ready to protect the public from an armed confrontee. I also believe that in this case cited, the neighbor should be arrested for their swatting of his neighbors. Creating a false narrative against his neighbors should have consequences.
     
  10. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    my point exactly, but as you saw, even doing so can get you shot, even walking by a window cause you hear a noise can get you shot if a cop sees you through the window.... guns come with risks, and if you have a gun around a cop, the risk is higher, just a fact to consider

    that said, I am glad people own guns, I choose not too, but a criminal not knowing if I have a gun keeps me safer
     
    Richard The Last likes this.

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