Where is the answer to this mess?

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by spiritgide, Oct 13, 2021.

  1. Fangbeer

    Fangbeer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What's needed is the revival of the idea that individual liberty requires individual responsibility and accountability.

    We need to re-remember that that framework can produce outcomes that promote social accountability, general welfare, and general security.

    One of the primary motivational influences for progress is pain. Currently when we see pain occurring we have the mindset that it must be eliminated at all costs. This occurs even if our response alleviates pain produced by pain producing behaviors.

    The obesity epidemic is a prime example. Obesity is caused by behavior. We treat the behavior's symptoms to minimize the effect. This produces more obesity; more pain to treat. We have to reconnect with the idea that it's the behavior that causes the pain.

    The other motivational factor is pleasure. There has to be a carrot and a stick to incentivise good behavior. It has to feel better to be healthy than to eat 3500 calories per day. That's no easy challenge for a central authority to produce. It has to be a mindset, not a rule.

    We have to get back to a society where changing personal behavior changes personal outcome. We're disconnected from that now. Now to the victim everything is given, and nothing is ever expected in return. We offload the responsibility for pain on to others. We indulge in short term pleasures that produce long term pain.

    Until this changes we will continue to suffer these same problems.
     
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  2. Zorro

    Zorro Well-Known Member

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    First remain confident and do not be fooled by their bluff of the constant messaging. Part of the reason so many on the Left are always hysterical is that it is not uncommon that they have no basic survival skills and on a deep level they sense that. Remove the blue collar workforce that makes their densely populated cities habitable and they would be in a life existential crisis in less than two weeks. That is why they are always frantically trying to assert control, because deep in their guts, they know that they are powerless. Their pretense to power requires us buying their bluff and the number of us fooled falls daily.

    [​IMG]
    I suspect it will be a continuing series of small incremental steps.
    1. We need to vote much more intelligently, especially in local elections. Start at the school board, email the candidates and find out if they agree with Terry McAuliffe's assertion that parents should sit down and keep their mouths shut. Regardless of the sincerity of their answer, the very question sends the message.​
    2. Contact your county supervisor, and find out if they are using computerized ballot counting equipment and ask them if they maintain a paper trail that will allow them to double check the totals should the need arise and is that paper trail kept locked up and secured.​
    3. Contact the candidates for prosecutor and ask them if they are committed to prosecuting petty theft, recognising that it is a crime to steal from others and that such criminals need to be held to account.​
    4. Contact your candidate for County Sheriff and ask them if they will enforce gun laws that in their opinion, are unconstitutional. Many of the County Sheriffs in Southern CA have made it very clear that they will not be enforcing gun laws that appear to be unconstitutional, and unlike city police who report to the city council, County Sheriffs stand before the voters for election and have an independent constituency base.​
    5. Ask your candidates for city council if they support the police and whether they would ever abandon a neighborhood to insurrectionists like we saw happen in Seattle during the summer of Leftwing Rioting, Assaulting and Looting.​
    6. Contact your State Legislature and find out if they would work 33 like minded legislatures to draft and circulate constitutional amendments that would work to restore the balance of power between the State and Federal government.​
    7. Contact your Congressperson and make sure that they work to cut the size of these massive spending bills that no one reads and let them know that you understand that they will vote AGAINST any bill that they are not given sufficient time to study before voting on it.​
    8. Support Constitutionalist Legal Foundations that advocate on our behalf in the manner that the ACLU fights for the Left. We need to be much more active engaging and encountering their constant battery of Lawfare. ​
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2021
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  3. Fangbeer

    Fangbeer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    A large portion of the issue is the idea that problems within complex systems not only have solutions, but that they are simple and universal.

    To many homeless? Give them houses. Why are they homeless? Doesn't matter.

    To much violence? Take away weapons. Why is there violence? Doesn't matter.

    To much poverty? Print money. Why is there poverty? Doesn't matter.

    To much disease? Free health care. Why is there disease? Doesn't matter.
     
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  4. Adfundum

    Adfundum Moderator Staff Member Past Donor

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    I'm thinking that we've been through this stuff before. Looking back at the 60's, it was quite a turbulent time, and for so many of the same reasons. Then things quieted down a bit. Did people just get older and more focused on other things? Did the emotional edge wear down over time? It clearly didn't go away, but it did subside for a while.

    IMO, today's politics are more focused on divisiveness as a strategy for getting more votes. And it's not just politics. The social and news media have learned to profit from all this. And, of course, humans seem to love outrage.

    How do we reverse that trend? How do we again start to see ourselves as one? Can we be one and not agree on everything? Can we sell an ideal, or do we have to force it on others?

    I agree that America is not lost, and that many misguided ideas are taking us places we really don't want to go. So, should we blame the other side? Should we feed the weaker side of human psychology? Can we ever hope to do any good at all if we adamantly refuse to compromise? After all, we never would have been a nation if the Founding Fathers had not decided that compromise was the only way to have our Constitution.
     
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  5. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    The fact you need ad homs all the time makes you a trump member
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2021
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  6. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Donor

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    Valid points! How would you get enough of the public to demand this strongly enough to bring it about?
     
  7. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Donor

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    There are of course many things we can compromise on without destroying what we are or our ability to keep the nation sound. That is the real issue, standing for what is fundamental and non-negotiable, being flexible in how we go about reaching what should be common objectives. Those fundamental values generally serve everyone of us, they should not be in question at all- but they are, by people who seem to be unable to see past their emotion of the moment.
     
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  8. Cybred

    Cybred Well-Known Member

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    Michelle Obama tried that, you guys raked her over the coals.
     
  9. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Donor

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    Basically I agree with what Fangbeer wrote. I think your point is that the public doesn't really like to hear that we have to try harder, be more responsible. That would be equally true.
    Most people want solutions- but they want them to fit neatly into what they already believe, and they want the burden of needed change to fall on others.
    I think that's human nature. Not good or wise, but an aspect of the way we normally see things.

    In terms of changing things, one has to look at what they have the power to change, and we don't have the power to effectively order people to be more responsible. Doesn't mean there isn't a route that can wind up there, but a direct approach would be total waste of energy. Another aspect of trying to make that change is having the majority of people, regardless of political party, be strongly in favor of it.
    That of course seems like an impossible task- but I have no doubt there's a way.

    My question continues- How can it be done, How can we put the plan in action.
     
  10. independentthinker

    independentthinker Newly Registered

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    Does the end justify the means? Both parties seem to think that they have the correct path and socialist countries also believe they are on the right path. So, in order to get where they want to be, often ethics, morals, and honesty get thrown out the window because those in power believe that their particular system is best for all, no matter what we have to do in order to get to that promised land. Take the recent pandemic. The right believe in smaller government and personal freedoms, even at the expense of the greater public health. The left believe in larger government and the (temporary) suspension of people's rights because it is for the greater public good. Once the pandemic is over, our rights will supposedly be restored.

    You seem to talk a lot about ethics, morals, honesty, and the like but many of these things have grey areas and are judged in the eye of the beholder. Who becomes the ethics police? Again, when it comes to the pandemic, the left accuse the right of spreading misinformation and have been censoring many on the right and others in regards to it. But, there are many differing opinions in the science community on various aspects of the pandemic and yet many questioning vaccines and vaccine mandates are shunned, silenced, and otherwise penalized for expressing their views (and I'm not talking about conspiracy theory territory). The left media and politicians silence everything they can about "anti-vaxxers" and don't tell us the truth about how many people have died from the vaccines or have had very serious reactions to them. Doctors licenses are threatened if they have an anti-vax opinion. The inventor of the mRNA vaccines is silenced for suggesting there may be serious drawbacks from them.

    So, circling back to where I started, who is put in charge of what is ethical and what is not? If a politician receives donations from a cause he believes in and one of the reasons as to why voters elected him, is that unethical? What if the politician is a US Senator from a blue or red state and the ethical police in their home state are totally fine with that donation but an oppositely colored red or blue state in another part of the country scream ethics violations?
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2021
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  11. Mircea

    Mircea Well-Known Member

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    It would take me 8 pages to do that. What concerns me is that you are too blind to see, because people like Maxine Waters have advocated that under the guise of ensuring everyone gets housing.

    The only thing that prevents you and anyone else from owning land is you.

    Whose fault is it that you don't wanna form a partnership, association, limited liability company or S-Corp with other similarly situated persons and use your combined wages and assets to purchase land?

    Look in the mirror and you'll find the answer.

    Union busting is good.

    Wages are set by the Supply & Demand of a particular skill-set -- and your Labor Department identifies 800+ skill-sets -- within a given geographical labor market.

    Unions violate the inviolable Laws of Economics, namely the inviolable Law of Supply & Demand by setting wages higher than market rates.

    Any and all violations of the Laws of Economics result in severe penalties. Not instantaneously, because economics isn't a train and doesn't run on a schedule, but pay the price you ultimately will and there is no possible way to avoid the penalty.

    Because unions set wages for Zenith employees above market rates, they were destined to suffer a penalty.
    Because of the higher-than-market union wage rates, Zenith couldn't compete on the global market.
    Because Zenith couldn't compete on the global market, it suffered reduced revenues as a penalty.
    Because Zenith suffered reduced revenues, it couldn't buy back its own stocks.
    Because Zenith couldn't buy back its own stocks, Life's Good, or LG as you know them (a South Korean company) bought up Zenith stocks.
    Because LG ultimately bought up 51% of all Zenith stocks, it gained "ownership" of Zenith.
    Because Zenith ultimately ended up in bankruptcy because it violated the inviolable Laws of Economics, it went out if business when LG bought them at a fire sale resulting from the bankruptcy.

    What benefit did Zenith union workers get?

    They get to work at Wal-Mart and McDonalds now.
     
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  12. Condor060

    Condor060 Well-Known Member Donor

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    Oh please. Now you're going to throw in the victim card?
    You claimed people label you as a leftist.

    I said the fact that you don't know there is a difference between a Liberal and a Leftist would tend make people believe you're a leftist.

    And now you're somehow under attack? Maybe thats your answer right there.
     
  13. Mircea

    Mircea Well-Known Member

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    That violates the inviolable Laws of Economics on several levels.

    Your revenues have to exceed the cost of the "amount of additional energy expended" or at the very least, must equal those costs (ie you break even.)

    Education is subject to the Laws of Economics just like everything in this Universe is, and by everything, I mean every thing, as in every single thing, as in every ****** single thing, as in every ****** single thing including the kitchen sink.

    You don't have sufficient space, nor sufficient Capital to acquire such space and develop it. Contrary to Reality®, not even class can be taught on-line and the quality of on-line education is sub-standard, not to mention on-line requires substantial Capital to build and maintain the system.

    You don't have enough professors to teach, and college education is being dumbed-down for political reason as well as the fact that you don't have enough professors so they're using street-people to teach college classes.

    Granted, I wasn't a college professor when I taught college classes, but I was a grad student enrolled in a grad program and supervised directly by a full professor instead of being some guy who walked in off the street and didn't get paid for teaching a class but got to take 3 semester hours of graduate level classes for free and wasn't supervised by anyone.

    Also, contrary to what you believe, not everyone is cut out for university.

    Let us examine that "difference" using data from a primary source instead of fudged phony made up numbers from a Left-Wing propaganda website.

    Are you sitting down? Perhaps you should be.

    This is the average salary of CEOs in the US:

    $248,610/year.

    No, I didn't stutter.

    You drank the Kool-Aid® from your Göbbels-worshiping handlers, because we can see your grape mustache from here.

    I'm going to explain to everyone how the Göbbels-worshipers create their propaganda for their disinformation campaign.

    Only 3% of businesses in the US are publicly-traded corporations and they employ 5.6% of the work-force.

    SEC regulations require disclosure of cash and non-cash compensation of CEOs of publicly-traded corporations, but not the 97% of businesses who are not publicly-traded corporations.

    There are ~780,000 publicly-traded corporations.

    Out of that ~780,000, Göbbels-lovers cherry-pick 400 or 500 companies from the Forbes 400 or Fortune 500.

    Giving you the benefit of the doubt:

    500 / 780,000 * 100 = 0.064%

    Out of that 0.064% of publicly-traded corporations and 0.00192% of all businesses in the US, the Göbbels-ass-kissers pick the 25 highest paid CEOs and then claim their salaries are representative all CEOs in the US.

    Your own government proves the Göbbels-lovers to be liars.

    But the Göbbelizations don't end there.

    Again, SEC regulations require the reporting of both cash and non-cash compensation for the CEOs of publicly-traded corporations.

    For example, it is known that the CEO of Anthem Blue Cross/Blue Shield received:

    $7 Million cash + $16 Million non-cash compensation = $23 Million total compensation.

    The Göbbels-idols use the $23 Million to artificially inflate their false numbers.
     
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  14. Fangbeer

    Fangbeer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You guys?

    Also a big part of the problem. The heuristics people use to simplify complex problems obscure the actual problem.

    The problem is too complex to measure completely, and since you can't regulate things you can't measure, you simplify the problem and apply a simplified solution.

    Michelle didn't try why I'm suggesting because what I'm suggesting is that a single solution to a single problem is not possible. There is no single cause and no single problem to be solved. There are individual problems that require individual solutions.
     
  15. Fangbeer

    Fangbeer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It's the local knowledge problem. "The plan" can never address the randomness of outcomes that are provoked by "the plan". That's the problem.

    Pull one lever of society and all other levers shift in response. No easy way to directly predict how they will move, or even how they moved in response.
     
  16. Mircea

    Mircea Well-Known Member

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    That is incorrect.

    Minimum wage jobs naturally exist because all wages/salaries are determined by the Supply & Demand of a particular skill-set within a given geographical labor market.

    In the absence of a federal or State minimum wage, there would be the lowest wages, which effectively are the minimum wages.

    Note that Göbbels-idols are at a loss to explain why all employers in the US don't pay the federal/State minimum wage and nothing more.

    To show how the Supply & Demand of a particular skill-set within a given geographical labor market sets wage rates, I get $750/hour.

    Why? I just told you why.

    My geographical labor market is Earth.

    And, on this Earth, there are only about 3-4 dozen people with my particular skill-set, and all of us are either American, British or Russian.

    The Supply of my skill-set is very low, but the Demand for it is very high, which is why I command wages of $750/hour.

    If there were 30,000 to 40,000 people with my skill-set, I wouldn't get $750/hour (although I could certainly try.)

    That's exactly right.

    It is not my fault people are not properly motivated to do what needs to be done.
     
  17. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    You making that statement is untrue. You made it up sd an ad hom.
    Not just I, it's your post style.
     
  18. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    As they say in Japan, "It's mirror time!"
    How about trying the three things you have never tried and remain implacably opposed to: liberty, justice, and truth?
     
  19. Josh77

    Josh77 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Lol, our economics today is not based on anything resembling scientific laws, if that is what you are going on about. It is more a social science.

    As far as CEO wages go, $250,000 seems unreasonably high, since median wages in the US are about $50,000.
     
  20. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    Maybe before you invoke inviolable Laws you should specify exactly what they are.
    No they don't. You simply made that up. Lots of firms post losses. Most post so many losses that they go broke in the first few years. You are just flat, outright wrong as a matter of objective physical fact.
    Identify those "Laws" or **** about them.
    It's looking more and more like you are just falsely claiming to know how everything in the Universe works.
    That's quite a lot, given that 88% of them have fewer than 20 employees:

    https://www.jpmorganchase.com/insti...ss/small-business-dashboard/economic-activity

    You drank the Kool-Aid® from your Göbbels-worshiping handlers, because we can see your grape mustache from here.

    I'm going to explain to everyone how the Göbbels-worshipers create their propaganda for their disinformation campaign:
    Oh? Who made that claim? Can you provide a direct, verbatim, in-context quote to that effect?

    <crickets>

    Your own government proves the Göbbels-lovers to be liars.

    But the Göbbelizations don't end there. Have a look:

     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2021
  21. Fangbeer

    Fangbeer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Why when tyranny is so much easier?

    Everything everyone else does is a problem.
    Nothing I do is a problem.
    Give me all the property to distribute as I see fit.
    Only live your life exactly as I tell you to.

    Utopia achievement unlocked.
     
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  22. Mircea

    Mircea Well-Known Member

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    That is a natural consequence of economic development.

    I find it disturbing that you mentioned Star Trek but were unable to connect the dots.

    The Star Trek Universe is set in the 6th Level Economy.

    All economies begin as Zero Level Economies. That's Agriculture and the 1st Phase is subsistence farming.

    Anyone with a modicum of intelligence can infer from that it is heavily family/community-oriented.

    As you gain technology and refine your agriculture through knowledge and experience, you generate a surplus of crops which does two things: 1) generates trade with other economies to acquire goods and crops that you don't have or cannot produce regardless of the reason which increases your Standard of Living; and 2) creates surplus labor because you need fewer people to produce N-amount of crops.

    That surplus labor allows you to move into the 1st Level Economy where you are exploiting natural resources such as timber, coal, oil, natural gas, peat, metallic ores and non-metallic minerals, etc.

    Because you generally don't have the labor and don't have the technology, know-how or Capital, you're exporting raw unprocessed materials which don't get a lot of money on the market.

    At first it's bauxite ore. You gain labor and Capital and start processing bauxite ore. Crushed bauxite sells for a higher price on the market, just as processed oils sell higher, because through the processing, you've removed the water, sediments, particulate matter and things like Vanadium, Uranium, Mercury, Nickel, etc etc from the oils.

    With additional labor, know-how, experience and Capital, you end up selling Aluminum ingots or refined oils.

    Your focus here is still on family, but lesser on community.

    Now you're prepped for the 2nd Level Economy.

    You're manipulating those Aluminum ingots and selling sheet metal and your refined oils are now products, but to get there requires things you don't have or don't exist in sufficient Supply.

    2nd Level Economies explode with rampant growth. 8%-15% per quarter year after year for 10+ years is typical.

    That growth comes from the creation of things that did not exist or where in short Supply.

    You may have had insurance to run your business, but now you need more insurance and diversified insurance. You need a host of other services like management, administration, legal, financial, banking, investment, accounting, engineering, architectural and many more.

    You ain't got those people. Yet. They're coming. They're in the pipeline. They're going to college to get the education and training necessary to provide you with the services you need.

    Going to college or even finishing high school delays marriage which naturally reduces the birth-rate.

    To date, there is no 2nd Level Economy that did not experience a drastic decline in birth-rate.

    But notice you are moving toward specialization which de-emphasizes community.

    The 3rd Level Economy exploits the technology arising from the 2nd Level Economy, which requires even more advanced education, which delays marriage and reduces the birth-rate.

    You pretty much forget about community and focus on family as you increase specialization, but that specialization is necessary to propel you into the 4th Level Economy.

    The 4th Level Economy is services, especially specialized services which are very individualistic, but more than that, you have something you didn't have before, and that is a very high Standard of Living coupled with greater disposable income and more free time to pursue hobbies and interests.

    Your focus is on you, and achieving your personal, professional, career, social, financial and retirement goals.

    The good news is that when you move into the 5th Level Economy, that focus shifts back to your family and you reacquaint yourself with community.

    When you finally reach the 6th Level Economy, your focus is on family and community. What about you? At that point, nearly everything you do for yourself benefits your family and community.

    You should have moved into the 5th Level Economy in the late 1990s, but you didn't.

    Why? Because of you and people like you.

    You're all hung up on manufacturing. You got it backwards. 18%-20% of your GDP should be wages, salaries, and the tangible and intangible products of Research & Development.

    Instead, you and people like you think Fat Union Fred operating his Nissei plastic-injection molding machine making 12 plastic kitchen gadgets an hour is the be all, end all, of everything.

    Your primary, secondary, and post-secondary education systems suck. Period. And that's because you and people like you won't do anything about it.

    So, you don't have the human Capital necessary to move into the 5th Level Economy.

    Why should you care about that?

    Fine. Don't care.

    Some country on this Earth is going to move into the 5th Level Economy and when they do, they'll be the Master and you'll be the Servant.

    I'm sure you'll be looking forward to that.
     
  23. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    And more profitable.
    Bingo. And more specifically, nothing that is profitable to me could possibly be the problem.
    I guess it's probably fun to just make $#!+ up and pretend someone else has said it, but it doesn't really advance the discussion.
     
  24. Cybred

    Cybred Well-Known Member

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    All she tried to do was make sure kids got a healthy lunch at school, and you guys hated her for it.
     
  25. Mircea

    Mircea Well-Known Member

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    Your claim was thoroughly debunked and refuted in an earlier post.

    That is magnificent, but it is not economics.

    I won't even get into the "should" fallacy.

    That' fails on several levels. Obviously, you don't understand the purpose and function of interest.

    The inviolable Law of Supply & Demand applies to money.

    Money is Capital and it is not infinite. It is very finite. Because it is finite, interest rates are necessary to ensure money is used most efficiently rather than frivolously, for trivial pursuits, for banal nonsense or vanity.

    Because it is finite, people compete for money, and the interest rate reflects Supply & Demand for available, in addition to other factors (such as credit worthiness.)

    Congratulations on proffering two fallacies simultaneously: the Fallacy of Equivocation by equivocating economics with energy; and False Analogy since economics is not even remotely similar to energy in any way, shape or form.

    No, Liberals do that.

    Another inconvenient Truth is that you are Gog, and because you are, there is no escaping your fate.

    Enjoy your fiery death at the hands of the Pyromaniac and Divine Pyromaniac Junior.

    Learn the different between Property Theories and Economic Systems and get back to us.

    Hint: Enroll in an economics course at your local university and hope the education is not sub-standard.

    You and people like you are part of the problem.

    You're still hung up on the glory days of manufacturing.

    Long Wang in Vietnam earns $1.35/hour operating his Japanese-made Nissei plastic injection molding machine that produces 12 plastic kitchen gadgets per hour.

    Hi Chin in China earns $1.45/hour operating his Japanese-made Nissei plastic injection molding machine that produces 12 plastic kitchen gadgets per hour.

    Batalog in the Philippines earns $1.60/hour operating his Japanese-made Nissei plastic injection molding machine that produces 12 plastic kitchen gadgets per hour.

    Cosmin in Romania earns $2.25/hour operating his Japanese-made Nissei plastic injection molding machine that produces 12 plastic kitchen gadgets per hour.

    Fat Union Fred in the US earns $30/hour operating his Japanese-made Nissei plastic injection molding machine that produces 12 plastic kitchen gadgets per hour.

    Which worker is more productive?

    That's a trick question, since at face value they are all equally productive because the Japanese-made Nissei plastic injection molding machine will produce 12 plastic kitchen gadgets per hour and not one more.

    In reality, Fat Union Fred is the least productive since his Capital is being wasted. It's a waste of human Capital, labor, Capital equipment, cash, resources and goods that could be used more efficiently.

    Throughout human history, Divide & Conquer has never failed.
     

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