Why are we (Spanish) being pushed down with this new taxation?

Defenders of the measures done in Spain, can you tell me if you agree with the raise of VAT to school books from 4% to 21%? That won't bring more economic problems, to people with economic difficulties, no?

 

Spain's VAT's general rate is about to be raised to 21% from September but the 4% rate for food, medicine and books will be kept at 4%. The 21% rate will only be applied to luxury items such as alcoholic drinks, tobacco and CDs and it's a fair measure to raise additional taxes when the government is struggling to raise revenues due to the sluggish economy.

 

The 21% rate will be applied for culture like Music, theatres... And many other things, also in school material there will be raise from teh 4% to 21%. And in the general VAT there is not only "luxury" things, there are all the tools,...

 

There is one thing I can´t make sense of.

I think that they more middle class a country has, the better they wealthy people will make money, for they will be able to sell their TV-sets, fridges, travels, services, products.

I mean, if I were a businessman, a owner of a factory, I would like people to buy, (kind of obvious), so, if the country I live in has many well-off people capable of buying my products, I will make more money, and this is why I don´t understand why some people claim that wealthy people are interested in making some countries poorer, the poorer, the better. Does that make sense?.

I am talking for instance, about Greece, Portugal, or my own country (Spain), that I read that wealthy people, banksters, can be interested in turned them down, making them fall/tear apart. Is that so?

 

I think i already posting that, let's say Spain has a public business .... mines , those mines are worth €10 , if Spain is hit on the ropes by global thieves they will be forced to sell those mines for €1 . Banksters do not want to develop those mines they only want the ownership titles so they can go and sell them for €8 .
You have to understand that this isn't a conspiracy targeting countries , it is a quick money grab , the markets see weaknesses and exploit them so they can make a buck and go "invest" somewhere else.
See what is happening in France? they are taxing "the rich" 75% , do you know what they will do with all this tax money? they will go and drop them to the bottomless pit of the financial industry , even if you confiscate the entire property of plutocracy it will not last for long inside the current state of affairs .

Capitalism is when fewer and fewer people have more and more piece of the pie , neoliberalism is the final blow to knock out first the middle class and then the upper one .

 

1- So, markets just don´t care the consequences of what they do in those countries, they don´t know they are creating poverty, misery, killing people, make them miserable.

2- Isn´t it better , in the long run, for the wealthiests, to maintain a large middle class capable of consuming?

3- Aren´t the wealthy french people put their money in havens, so that they don´t have to pay to France?

4. You said: "...neoliberalism is the final blow to knock out first the middle class and then the upper one ..." . You mean that neoliberalism will end up with the upper class too, the wealthiest? Don´t they know it is self-destruction?

5. Are there vultures flying over Spain, Greece, Portugal, and any other "weak/dying animals" ?.

 

Investment bankers are using investor's money only to take their commissions and retire in their private islands , they couldn't care less about our future.

It is but the problem here as i posted earlier is not capitalism but neoliberalism , supply and demand play no role only financial transactions . The industry, farming and other fields of economy mean zero , all it matters are the banks and the fiat money a handful of people control.

Yes they will do or already did that but for how long? sooner or later those small tax heavens will be forced to submit their data , the dogs are out for cash and none will be able to hide it ( but only those who control the money supply and the governments ). You think that Barbados or Cayman Islands will dare refuse to France or UK ?

Neoliberalism is already destroying the upper class , how many of the big non financial business have been destroyed in Europe so far? How about GM in USA ? no man this will not stop until even the large fish are eaten .

Yes they are but we are only bait , after we are down they will move for the big catch of UK, France & Germany and then to even bigger ones overseas .

Your post make me wonder about how aware Spanish people are about what is happening, don't you have any blogs , economists or meetings to inform yourselves ? don't you read bloomberg , the guardian , euronews and other international sources ?

 

These investment bankers, could I know where do they belong? I mean, in which companies do they work?. Don´t they know that by doing so, they will destroy economies, and , eventually, their future too in the long run? Or They know that they can survive or live richly because they will intend to boost the economy when neccesary?. I mean: They take their commision, they live happily afterwards, they will pay for their children to study Economics so that they follow the tradition in the family, aren´t they just "the worst people ever" ?. Do they have ethics?, well, since I don´t understand about Economics, I guess my questions are quite simple or naive.

How can Germany, France and the UK, being so strong economies/countries, let the vultures or investment bankers to eat the dying countries, like Spain or Greece, when they know if Greece and Spain fail, German and UK and France themselves are bound to fail too?

When you say this, you are refering to speculation, when you say "...supply and demand play no role , only financial transaction do". Can´t big countries forbid speculation , so that no more economies can fail, so that Spain and Portugal and Greece can save from the disaster.? . What is speculation meant for? shouldn´t it be forbidden?

What are they waiting for? What are France and UK waiting for, to prohibit tax havens?. Is that take so long? Who and why created tax havens? why are they allowed?!

Is not "neoliberalism" and "upper class" the same thing? , I mean, normally, the upper class control the system, so, it is weird for me too hear "neoliberalism is destroying upper class" which could be like saying "upper class is destroying upper class"

There are indeed, but as in many countries, there are a lot of uneducated people, people who just watch the news on TV, but don´t read, and news on TV are many times misleading or incomplete I think.

 

Quite simple!

The Technocrats have taken over the ministerial posts.

Un-elected un-sackable and totally insular to the well being of the nation!

Dictatorial Fascism by the back door!

And its not going to be a walk in the park.

Solution, either revolution or watch the genocide of all nation states and there populations by those that now have the ability to dictate to all!

And most are not elected to office, ie the IMF or ECB technocrats, the council of Europe and the rest of the degenerates and parasite which have previously consumed nation states with their elitist policies..

Regards
Highlander

 

I agree, the infamous troika are pretty much running the show now.

 

Never lose hope, comrade. There are already several infant movements gaining prominence with the potential to turn revolutionary.

 

1- So, Goverment raised up from 16% up to 18% , they checked the negative outcome of that measure and they happily said: "Let´s raise it even more, so that my country, our country tears down definitely" . Does that make any sense? . Not to me at all. If I am the goverment, and check that the outcome has been a disaster, I don´t raise it even more. Sounds toatlly absurd.

2- Which are, in short, "neoliberalism policies" which are so bad for the economy, and that goverments don´t see?. Aren´t there good Economists in Italy, Greece, Spain to know we can´t raise VAT or we shouldn´t?

One, reading these things could conclude: The goverment in Spain is, on purpose, trying to get the economy down by raising the VAT, because they saw the negative outcome of the raise (16 to 18 ) and now they occur to raise it again (18 to 21).

 

1- So, Goverment raised up from 16% up to 18% , they checked the negative outcome of that measure and they happily said: "Let´s raise it even more, so that my country, our country tears down definitely" . Does that make any sense? . Not to me at all. If I am the goverment, and check that the outcome has been a disaster, I don´t raise it even more. Sounds toatlly absurd.

2- Which are, in short, "neoliberalism policies" which are so bad for the economy, and that goverments don´t see?. Aren´t there good Economists in Italy, Greece, Spain to know we can´t raise VAT or we shouldn´t?

One, reading these things could conclude: The goverment in Spain is, on purpose, trying to get the economy down by raising the VAT, because they saw the negative outcome of the raise (16 to 18 ) and now they occur to raise it again (18 to 21).

 

How these bankers make the commissions, on what?. Is it too much to ask an example?.

Are you refering to Speculation? where no real things matter but "fiction" money?

What are they waiting for to eliminate such tax havens? Where are the hungry dogs? What has to happen to act?

Who is interested in tearing down big businesses which create employment and, therefore, comsumption and therefore, a large middle class consuming, and making rich richers?.

Who are "they"? What is the purpose of eat Germany , UK and France?. I find it a very bold statement, though I don´t know anything related to Economy.

 

Your government recklessly got itself into a big pile of debt, and now the country has to pay for it all.

Maybe Spain should just default on its debt, and write into its constitution that the government will never be allowed to borrow money again

 

Your government recklessly got itself into a big pile of debt, and now the country has to pay for it all.

Or maybe Spain should just default on it's debt and write into the constitution that it is not allowed to ever borrow any more money in the future.

 

Not at all, the finacial institutions the ECB and the IMF gave moeny to those they bought, corrupt politicians, and borrowed even though they didn't need to!

Simply remedy, like Iceland, give them nothing, take the bankers back to the country or origin and take them through the legal procedures.

But like Britian and America, they will not extradite the bankers, because they would also be caught in there illegal activities and be made to pay with there own money the debts of the nations concerned!

Or you can keep pointing a finger at those that had no responsibility to the corruption or the debts!

Regards
Highlander

 

The government got into debt, and now, the citizens have to pay the money back through taxation, fair enough, and moreover, the bankers like Rodrigo Rato (Bankia chairman) goes home with a payment of 2 million €, and like him, many other bankers go with a payment, called here in Spain "Indemnización" ("compensation" according to an online dictionary) . In my opinion, one receives a compensation from the government when you are run over by a car, or you have an important accident, and so forth, but not if you resign from your post, moreover if you resign and can be demostrated that you did something wrong, I am really puzzled.

Maybe that is why in the 1929 crash bankers commited suicide and now is working people in Greece and Spain who is commiting suicide?.

 

That is very interesting, really interesting, though, since I am a newcomer when it comes to Economics, many things are beyond my understanding.

1. You mean the ECB and the IMF gave money to those they bought, carelessly, without responsability, without caring
about anything else? I didn´t understand that.

2. When you say "corrupt politician, and borrowed even though they didn´t need it" , who borrows to whom? , politicians to the ECB and the IMF? who didn´t need it? . Sorry for asking such basic question, I am trying to make sense of all this mess, this huge crisis my country and others are suffering.

3. "Iceland gave them nothing" means that Iceland gave nothing back to the IMF or the ECB? . I heard about that, about Iceland putting into jail to bankers, we, spaniards watched that in absolutely amazement.

4. Why is that Spaih, Greece and Portugal are suffering the crisis more strongly than others, and AT THE SAME TIME?. Is it because our economies were weaker? or we borrowed more?

5. Do you know, by change, to whom do we (Spanish, Portuguesse, and Greek people) owe money? to the ECB, to the IMF, to both, to Germany? Why all this mess? Did it not all begin with the sub-prime mortgages loans in the US?

6. Is Germany concerned about Spanish crisis? I mean, if Spain tears down, Is Germany and France and others in danger? Do they care about Spain really?.

I´ll read more about Iceland, because I can´t make sense when you said "They give them nothing" (to whom?)

 

Give the CEC and the IMF and those associated with them nothing! If you go bankrupt its you, since when does someone else acquire your debts.... ie the tax payer!
Let them sink or swim in there self regulation....or a full investigation.... and those found responsible.... to pay there just dues!
Its is only the tip of a very big ice berg!
http://www.hangthebankers.com/australias-sub-prime-scandal-finally-breaks-wide-open/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-pays-rockets-3m-average-rest-salary-cut.html
Beyond criticism
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=26690

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/us-treasury-admits-it-conducted-circular-ponzi-scheme-years

If those running the nation are unelected, its called a dictatorship!

The ECB and the IMF have put in place technocrats, dicatorship in Spain Italy and Greece.

They are owned wholly but these institutions, but all one need do... is to investigate and prosecute!

Regards
Highlander

 

1- EU (Germany and France mainly) and IMF (US has a key role here as far as I read) lend money to Greece, Spain, Portugal and Ireland.
2- They lend money to the banks, "too big to fail". It is supposed that when these banks receive the money, they should lend money to people, businesses, real economy, so that it could boost again, now that the banks are sound and safe, with plenty of money again.
3- By doing so (banks lending money to people), people will be capable of consuming again, of opening new businesses again, and the banks will have more profits, and the government will have more income, and the government, through this new income, will be able of paying back the loan. I mean, if credit from banks don´t flow into real economy, the country will tear apart , won´t be able to pay off the debt, and I guess the German banks want the money back, but someone in this fourm says they don´t want their money back, but these countries on their knees to buy their , our wealth.
4- They impose/enforce austerity measures which they know will make things for the countries to pay the money back. Austerity measure means less consumption = more layoffs = more businesses shut down = more unemployment = less revenues/income for the government to pay back to German and French and IMF banks.

My conclusion: Neither IMF, nor Germany of France want us to boost , otherwise they wouldn´t enforce austerity measures, would they?.

Someone said too that primary-need goods are not born with more taxation: food, books, medicine ......but, what about the gasoline?. Any single business, no matter how big or small they are, depends on the price of the gasoline because they have to transport their goods from one city to another. In my opinion that will prompt companies to rise the prices of whatever they have to transport: milk, cookies, meat, you name it.

From comment #17: "The IMF is trying to get them (Greece, Portugal...) bust". "...Bringing Spain down to their knees will make everything cheap for the sharks to grab" . I say that, in the long run, the 1% of wealthiest people can only keep on being wealthy if they are wiser and try to have a large, very large middle-class, who consumes.

From comment #19: "Read what happened anywhere IMF got involved" . What the hell does the IMF is trying to achieve?.
I quote again from #19: "Countries and people are the least of plutocary´s concerns , take for example how Spain was enforced to save Bankia...would ever Bankia lift a finger to save the people?" . I insist on saying: Wealthy people, banks, rely ultimately on the people on the bottom, on working normal people´s savings, money, to be richer and richer. Again: The more middle class, the better for the wealthy, the better for all I would say.

I have even read that Germany is interested in tearing apart the EU, and the Euro, due to these difficult circumsntances.

Other people here say that Spain spent a lot of money, and so did Greece. The credit was so easy to get (from greedy in Wall Street "sub-prime") that countries got money to boost Economy, but I am not quite sure about this.

And the guy who says that Denmark has 25% of VAT, yes, It is true, but you can´t compare a stable country like yours with Spain, and even less, now.

I mean, I have read about Sweden and Denmark having 25% of VAT, and all works well in those countries, so, in my opinion, it has nothing to do the figures of 20, 22, 25, or whatever, it is just how healthy is the economy of the country, I think.

If raising taxation is not the solution, what could we do?.

Conclusion 2: IN THE LONG RUN, A LARGE MIDDLE CLASS IS NEEDED, IN THE SHORT RUN THERE WILL BE VULTURES, COMPANIES, GREEDY BANKS WHO DON´T REALIZE THIS. If not, what is the aim of Neoliberalism? the real aim? to tear down many countries? to ruin them? what for? , the 1% of the wealthiest people, Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, Barclays, etc, need us, they need us to consume, to make economies boost, to create a real good stander of living, they don´t realize they need a middle class?

 

loureed4 i guess you spent your summer reading

Now on your conclusions there are two different approaches

#1 : There is a Plan
Bringing countries down will allow faster "European integration" (aka surrendering the keys to Brussels) while kicking populations on their knees will make them more profitable to exploit.

#2: There is no Plan
It is just a quick money grab by people fewer than 1% , they just want to go away with the money and don't care for the consequences .

Giving what the polls are showing in Italy / Greece / The Netherlands European integration is becoming a distant dream for those who wish it , the class awakening and social mobilisation in European south is too negative for the idea of EU to be accepted plus if Italy leaves the Eurozone Germany will be royally screwed . This is why i am going with #2 : There is no plan.

 

I wish anyone who is struggling financially better times soon, but the Spanish did vote for high spending governments and Spain did have tens of billions of euros from EU structural funds and the Spanish willingly joined the euro which exacerbated its uncompetitiveness. I don't really see how Spanish citizens can wash their hands of the mess.

It isn't bankers who will pay the price, it's the citizens, especially those from Western Europe, who will. I feel very sorry for ordinary Spanish citizens who are no more economists than most, but nor am I happy about contributing to the fund that pays off the debts of countries who've lived well beyond their means, and I'm even less happy at the UK government committing future generations to pay off those debts. It's immoral. We have a serious debt crisis of our own.

And no, I don't think raising taxes is ever the answer. It reduces the incentive to work.

 

Did you read the thread or only the last posts?
Spanish problems did not occur because of "high spending government" but because of unlimited cheap money that caused a housing bubble .
Southern Europe's debt is odious and it shouldn't be paid .

 

I totally agree. It seems to me some people want to make us believe this theory: "You Spain/Greece/Iceland/Ireland/Portugal have lived beyond your incomes, you voted for high expenses and now, you are paying the consequences" , in this way, banks and bankers feel better, putting the blame on us, on certain countries.

Yesterday I watched a four-part documentary called "Meltdown" on youtube, and in the last part you clearly see how Iceland , which never before had been in financial troubles or engagements, had a very severe crisis and that every citizen in there owed 3.4 thousand dollars to pay off the debt, if I don´t recall the figure badly. The same applies to China, to my amazement , I was watching how many factories shut down, and the narrator said: "China was one of the first countries in noticing the tsunami from Wall Street" (not eaxctly that way, but sort of).

After that, it was a heartbreaking story about foreclosures in California, with people homeless living in camps, in the surroundings , in Sacramento, many camps, with whole families, the Dubai, the Spain, then Greece....so, do you think it is these countries´ fault? all at the same times? . That makes me think a lot and that is why I agree with Mutmekep.