Why did the Palestinians leave – 1948 War

The Debate

In the Middle East subsection of the forum Borat suggested that that the Palestinians left their homes to “make way for the invading Arab armies” and that this was the cause of the Palestinian refugee problem. His argument relied on some quotes he found on a website called jewishfederations.org. I have already rebutted all of these said quotes with klipkap, but he still is repeating the quotes, and accuses us of “whining.” This will be a continuation of this topic so that we can settle the issue right here.

Background - Palestine Refugee Problem

A few selected quotes from “The Arab Israeli Dilemma” by Fred Khouri

“The Palestine War uprooted hundreds of thousands of Palestine Arabs, Christian as well as Muslims, and turned most of them into bitter, resentful, and restless refugees living in crowded camps near the borders of Israel … Immediately after the UN General Assembly passed the partition resolution on November 29, 1947, serious clashes broke out between the Arab and Jewish communities in Palestine. Fearfully recalling the bloody communal skirmishes which took place during the Arab revolt in the 1930’s, some 30,000 upper – and middle-class Arabs left Palestine for safer areas … As the fighting spread and intensified, many more thousands of frightened Arabs fled their homes to escape areas of combat and to seek for food and other necessities of life. After April 1, 1948, the Arab exodus accelerated as a result of several successful Jewish military offensives into Arab-inhabited territories and terroristic attacks by the Irgun and the Stern Gang against Arab civilians, like the massacre of 250 men, women and children in the village of Deir Yaseen, to spread panic among the Arabs and to cause them to flee whenever Jewish forces approached. Even before the armies form the neighboring Arab states moved into Palestine when the mandate ended on May 15, 1948, approximately 200,000 Palestine Arabs had already become refugees [the actual number is closer to 300,000 according to other sources] … The Arab exodus accelerated after the first truce ended and the Israeli army assumed the offensive on most fronts and penetrated deeply in many Arab-inhabited areas … From the Lydda-Ramleh section alone some 60,000 Arabs were ordered by the Israelis to leave on such short notice … Evacuated Arab villages undesirable for Jewish habitation were destroyed by the Israelis so that the former inhabitants would be less likely to try to return … During the second and permanent truce period, illegal Israeli military offensives caused many more thousands of Arabs to leave their homes … Even after the armistice agreements were concluded in 1949, additional thousands of Arabs were expelled from Israeli-controlled territory. For example, in the fall of 1950 and the summer of 1953, large numbers of Arabs, especially Bedouins, were compelled to flee into Egypt, while in 1951 many Arab inhabitants of the Israeli-Syrian Demilitarized Zone were forced to leave their homes.”

Arguments made from previous thread

The debate started on page 8 of this thread.
Klipkap stated that it’s a myth that the 1948 Palestinian refugees were told to flee by their own leaders. In response Borat came out with several different quotes that he had taken from this link that he found online. I directly responded to each of these quotes and pointed out their inaccuracies in that thread:

 

First I’d like to point out how you provided no primary evidence. Commenting on the Economist article from October 2, 1948, Erskine Childers writes “seen in its place in the full ‘Economist’ it was once clear that … [it] was a second-hand account” and that the “correspondent who had not been in that city at the time.” Nonetheless this is not enough information to prove that about 700,000 people left their homes. The exodus of Haifa actually started in December, contrary to the wishes of the authorities at the time – as I will explain in more detail shortly.

The first people to leave Haifa (which has nothing to do with orders) were 250 Arab families form the Halissa quarter on 4 December. Describing this departure Benny Morris writes “Danin and Palmon on 11 December noted the start of emigration out of Haifa. Most of the Arab movement out of Haifa’s border area was due to the fighting – sniping, bombings and demolitions –and fears of fighting that marked life on the peripheries of each community. Some Arab families who lived inside or on the edges of Jewish districts on Mount Carmel were intimidated, possibly at Irgun or Lehi instruction into leaving their homes.” Throughout the rest of December there were several attacks on the Arab population of Haifa and the Haifa National Committee member Hajj Mohammad Nimr al Khatib recalled that “the Haifa Arab public began to feel the weakness of its position and there were residents who began to emigrate from the city. Of course, this had a dampening effect on those who remained in the town.” One source states that by mid-December 15,000 – 20,000 Arabs had fled from Haifa, while another claims that by 22 January “25,000” had left Haifa. And this is months before your "Economist report" was written.

If you look at the National Arab Committee communique’s throughout Haifa's exodus you find out that they were demanding for the residents of Haifa to stay put, not leave. Walid Khalidi examined all of these in his writing “The Fall of Haifa”, here are but some of them: On December 6 1947, the committee demanded the Arabs of Haifa to stay at his post or at his work whenever an incident occurs. The next communique from December 12 1947 says “beware of fifth columnists” and that these rumors are “influencing some people to leave their properties and houses which have become an easy pretty to the enemy who has seized and occupied them.” Next on December 14, the committee announces they have formed subcommittees and “these subcommittees are empowered to prevent people from abandoning their houses, particularly along the borders of the mixed Arab Jewish areas.” On December 16 the committee said “do not give in to warnings and threats and never desert your houses.” The communique on 29 December, after the Zionists rolled a barrel bomb from Hadar Ha Carmel, said “that all firing should cease” and that “the public should resume work as usual.” On January 9 1948, the communique said “all must stay at their work. Those who leave their work not only harm themselves by losing their means of livelihood, but they also harm their nation” and that “all government employees and police” must remain at their post. The last communique to come from Haifa before its fall states that “everyone must maintain his position and carry out all instructions and orders given to him.”

The committee finally appealed to the British army to provide them with land and sea transport to Acre and Lebanon. As Simha Flapan wrote this was only after “in collaboration with the Irgun, the Haganah then succeeded in conquering the Arab sections of the town, driving the inhabitants from their homes. The Haganah’s conditions for truce were so humiliating that the Arab National Committee of Haifa could not accept them” and that they were “suffering heavy casualties and unable to receive reinforcements from other Palestinian fighting forces or from the Arab states.”

The leadership of Haifa had actually demanded that the residents stay put. There was months of bombings, skirmishing, and food shortages, etc. The Haganah had to launch its onslaught on 21-22 April, to force the remaining Arab population to leave, although Haganah and other Zionist groups had been routinely attacking the city since December.
Another forum poster, Marlowe, added Next Marlowe through in some information about the Haifa exodus by taking a few quotes from Wikipedia. (originally from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_1948_Palestinian_exodus)]
Broadcasts on radio and by loudspeaker vans

Childers points out that Zionist radio broadcasts were designed to demoralize the Arab audience.
On March 17, four days before the Jewish offensive, the Irgun made an Arabic-language broadcast, warning urban Arabs that "typhus, cholera and similar diseases would break out heavily among them in April and May".[160][168] Similarly, Khalidi points to what he describes as the Zionist "psychological offensive" which was highlighted by, though not limited to, radio messages warning the Arabs of diseases, the ineffectiveness of armed resistance and the incompetence of their leaders.[162] According to Morris[169] during the exodus of Haifa "The Haganah broadcasts called on the populace to 'evacuate the women, the children and the old immediately, and send them to a safe haven'."

During the exodus from Haifa according to Morris[169] the Haganah made effective use of "Arab language broadcasts and loudspeaker vans" and according to Pappé ] "Jewish loudspeakers [urged] the Palestinian women and children to leave before it was too late."

According to Morris during April the Haganah "had prepared and recorded six speeches, which were broadcast time and again by the Haganah's radio station and loudspeaker vans". They didn't call for Arab flight, but they "were designed to cause demoralisation—and the HGS\Operations proposed to 'exploit' this demoralisation (it didn't say how)".[170]

Shelling of civilians and fighters Haganah by the use of the Davidka mortar. He writes that it was a "favorite weapon of the Zionists", which they used against civilians: "the Davidka tossed a shell containing 60 lbs. of TNT usually into crowded built-up civilian quarters where the noise and blast maddened women and children into a frenzy of fear and panic”

 

This is hardly evidence to prove that the 700,000 Arabs left their homes due to “orders.” You haven’t even provided any primary evidence of the orders. Surely an order of such importance must be traceable somewhere? You do not ask the entire population of a country to leave without somebody debating the matter, without a decision somewhere being taken, without an impression somewhere being made. On the contrary there is evidence to prove that the Arab countries told the Palestinians to stay put, and even in many cases, refused refugees to enter their country. Walid Khalidi who examined Arab documents from the General Assembly, ALA, AHC, and the Arab League from the time period states that they don’t mention one order to evacuate. Thus, where could of these evacuation orders come from? Moreover to list some specific examples: In April 1948 Abd al-Rahman Azzam Pasha, secretary of the general of the Arab League, and King Abdallah both issued public calls to the Arabs not to leave their homes. Fawzi al-Qawukji, commander of the Arab Liberation Army, was also given commands to stop the flight by force. The Arab governments only decided to allow entry to women and children and to send back all men of military age (18-50). Another example would be Muhammad Adib al-Umri, the deputy director of the Ramallah broadcasting station, he appealed to the Arabs to stop the flight form Jenin, Tulkarm, and other towns. Also on May 10, Radio Jerusalem broadcast orders on its Arab program from Arab commanders, and the AHC demanded Palestinians to stop the mass flight from Jerusalem. Even a report of the Jewish Agency’s Arab section form January 3, 1948, at the beginning of the flight, suggests that “the Arab exodus from Palestine continues, mainly to the countries of the West. Of late, the Arab Higher Executive has succeeded in imposing close scrutiny on those leaving for Arab countries in the Middle East.” And this is to list just a few examples…
This quote is unsubstantiated and very vague. Unable to get to the original quote in the memoirs, the closest and most reliable place this quote is found is in Mark Tessler’s “A History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict”.

 

CONTINUED FROM LAST POST

On the very next page, regarding the Israeli claims, and this quote, Tessler writes "Arab sources, a number of neutral observers, and even some Israeli analysts vigorously reject the assertion that appeals by Arab leaders played an important role in the Palestinian exodus. Erskine B. Childers, for example, insists that there is absolutely no truth to the allegation that the Arab radio broadcasts urged Palestinians to depart from their communities of origin. After a careful review of the transcripts prepared by the BBC, he reports that "there was not a single order, or appeal, or suggestion about evacuation from Palestine from any Arab radio station, inside or outside of Palestine, in 1948." This is also the conclusion of Benny Morris, who strongly disputes the allegations advanced by some supporters of Israel. Morris reports that he has been unable to find any evidence of radio or other calls appealing to Palestinian masses to leave, either by the Arab Higher Committee inside Palestine or by the Arab states. He notes that Arab leaders did not always condemn the Palestinian flight ... Simha Flapan, another Israeli analyst, also rejects the contention of an Arab "order from above" leading to the Palestinian exodus. He states that although this "proved to be particularly good propaganda for many years, despite its improbability ... the recent publication of thousands of documents in the state and Zionist archives, as well as Ben Gurion's war diaries, show the there is no evidence to support Israeli claims.” Tessler continues to explain that “Arab and other sources also challenge the validity of many of the reports and statements presented in support of the Israeli case. These sources make the following assertions. First, the few genuine Arab calls for an exodus that can be cited are ad hoc, isolated, and unrepresentative. Moreover, they are usually a response to, rather than a cause of, the panic that took hold in many Palestinian communities. Second, passages quoted by Zionists have often been taken out of context and had their meaning distorted. The Childers study reviews a number of these quotations, including some reproduced above, and presents omitted passages which place major responsibility for the exodus on Zionist action. Third, the Israeli case often utilizes Arab statements made after 1948. This point is emphasized by Sykes, an even-handed observer who in other instances provides information supportive of Israeli claims. Sykes notes that after the war “Arab journalists and broadcasters asserted on several occasions that the exodus was a planned Arab maneuver.” While such assertions were probably a mixture of boasting and rationalization, the important point is that they were made after the refugees had left. Nevertheless, according to Sykes, “they gave Zionist propagandists their cue.” Following this Tessler makes note that “not only is the allegation that Arab leaders called upon the Palestinians to flee untrue, the rejoinder continues, it is in fact the case that many Arab spokesmen actively urged the Palestinians to remain in their communities of origin. Again according to the important study by Childers, “There is repeated monitored record of Arab appeals, even flat orders, to the civilians of Palestine to stay put.” One example give by Childers is an April 1948 broadcast from Damascus, in which Palestinians were told to stay in their homes and continue their jobs. Another is a broadcast three weeks later by the Arab Liberation Radio, which complained that “certain elements and Jewish agents are spreading defeatist news to create chaos and panic among the peaceful population. Some cowards are deserting their houses, villages or cities.” Childers adds that “even Jewish broadcasts [in Hebrew] mentioned such Arab appeals to stay put. Zionist news papers in Palestine reported the same; none so much as hinted [in 1948] at any Arab evacuation orders.” The same conclusion is put forward by Flapan and Morris. Flapan provides additional examples of Arab statements and actions which sought to prevent Palestinian flight. Morris citing IDF intelligence sources, discusses Arab attempts “to halt the flow out of Palestine, specially of army-aged males … [and instances where] National Committees and local irregulars’ commanders tired to fight the exodus, even setting up people’s courts to try offenders and threatening confiscation of the property of departees.” Morris also states that the magnitude of the refuge problem “quickly persuaded the Arab states – primarily Transjordan – that it was best to half the flood tide.”

 

Again you provided no primary evidence of these orders. Considering you claim that 700,000 left Palestine due to orders, and are unable to substantiate the text of an official order, already makes your position very doubtful - and to be honest not true.

To begin with, let us examine the source for this short paragraph you copy+pasted. The first half of the paragraph, claiming that the Arab National Committee on March 8 instructed women, children and the elderly to leave is claimed to be from Middle Eastern Studies, January 1986. The second part claiming that the Arab armies ordered dozens of villages to evacuate is claimed to be from Benny Morris’s Birth of the refugee problem revisted, pp. 263 & 590-592. It seems you have just put yourself into a deep hole Borat, as I will explain.

To begin with the first source – Middle Eastern Studies, January 1986 – a document written by Benny Morris examined the flight of the Arab population between December 1, 1947 to June 1, 1948. Morris’s analysis was based off of an copy of a report he obtained from the intelligence branch of the Israeli Defense Forces. The document examined the months where almost half of the refugees left their homes, and gives the number of 391,000. It listed three major causes in their assigned order of importance:

1) Direct, hostile Jewish operations against Arab settlements
2) The effect of our hostile operations on nearby settlements
3) Operations of the dissidents

Benny Morris writes in this paper that “Jewish military operations indeed accounted for 70 percent of the Arab exodus”. In fact, I’m unsure how you could try to claim that this would prove 700,000 leaving their homes. The document which Benny Morris examined stated that “Arab institutions attempted to struggle against the phenomenon of flight and evacuation and to curb the waves of emigration.... Especially, they tried to prevent the exodus of youngsters of military age.... But all these actions completely failed because no positive action was taken which could have curbed the factors pushing toward emigration." In other words, it claims the opposite of what you’re trying to prove.

Thus your own source disproved your claim for you… Rather the article you quoted decided to take out small bits and try to construct a new reality, so sad.

Next, let us take a look at the other source, which is claimed to be Benny Morris pp. 590-592, these pages are attributed by other pro-Israeli websites as well. I’d like to point out that it is very strange for them to be using this source, considering just about the entire book refutes that the Arabs were responsible for the refugee problem… If you take a look at these pages you first notice that those exact words are never found in the text, thus the article shouldn’t be attributing quotation marks around them. In fact the word "dozens" is never used on these, page except once, and in this one instance it makes the opposite claim, saying "several dozen villages were ordered or 'advised' by the Haganah to evacuate." On these same pages it says that “the Arab Higher Committee and the local National Committees opposed the exodus, especially of army-aged males, and made efforts to block it. But they were inefficient and, sometimes, half-hearted.” Only after this does the text start to mention something similar to what you had said. It would also be important for me to note that in the beginning of Benny Morris’s book he lists on a map hundreds of Palestinian villages and their reason for departure – approximately 369 of them to be exact. Of this 369, he only attributes 6 of them for leaving on Arab orders, and even for some he shows that this was only partially the case. This is what his research indicated, and perhaps if you look at these 6 particular villages in close scrutiny you may find other reasons for their departure as well.

Moreover, the claim from your article even uses the words “occasionally” which indicates that this wasn’t a very wide-spread practice. If it were to be the main reason for the exodus, he definitely would have said so. The rest of his research within the book disproves the claim that the Palestinians left on Arab orders.

Morris also rejects that there Arabs demanded the Palestinians to evacuate. On page 269-271 Morris states that "had blanket orders to leave been issued by the outside Arab leaders, including the exiled Palestinian leaders - via radio broadcasts or in any other public manner- traces of them would certainly have surfaced in the contemporary documentation produced by the Yishu'vs/Israel's military and civilian institutions, the Mandate Government, and the British and American diplomatic legations in the area ... But no Jewish or British or American intelligence or diplomatic report from the critical period, December 1947 -July 1948, quotes from or even refers to such orders.” He continues to explain why the Arab orders didn’t cause the exodus on these pages.

 

Ah, this is yet another lie. Edward Atiyah, who wrote that book you quoted, came forward to dismiss this interpretation. In a letter in The Spectator of 23 June, 1961, he wrote that there is "no suggestion whatever in what I wrote that the exodus of the Arab refugees was a result of a policy of evacuating the Arab population. What I said is something quite different from the Zionist allegation that the Arab refugees were ordered or even told by their leaders to evacuate..." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Atiyah)
Klipkap had further added the rest of this letter by Edward Atiyah:
My first comment on this quotation from my book is that it leaves out my very next sentence (= cherry picking) which reads: "But it was also, and in many parts of the country, largely due to a policy of deliberate terrorism and eviction followed by the Jewish commanders in the areas they occupied, ant reaching its peak of brutality in the massacre of Deir Yassin." I was not afraid to say the whole truth, as it was known to me, and I stand by what I said then today, if it is taken in its entirety. I can only wish that the writer of the article had been equally prepared to accept the whole truth instead of evading or suppressing a very important part of it.

My second comment is that there is no suggestion whatever in what I wrote that the exodus of the Arab refugees was a result of a policy of evacuating the Arab population. What I said is something quite different from the Zionist allegation that the Arab refugees were ordered or even told by their leaders to evacuate, which is the main point at issue in the whole controversy which has been going on for some weeks now in your columns By giving the quotation from my book as an example of the "wealth of evidence from Arab sources to show that the Arab League at an early stage of the campaign adopted a policy of evacuating the Arab population, etc. ,' the writer of the article not only misrepresents what I said but also shows the highly suspect character of his "wealth of evidence."

Yours faithfully, Edward Atiyah

On what radio station was this broadcasted, where was it said, when was it said, please provide context. Perhaps the prime minister had said this to but one individual? We may never know because the quote has been used completely out of context and we don’t know the original source of the quote – unless we are to assume the first one to report the quote was in 1970.

Nonetheless, you provided no evidence of which cases the Arab women and children were demanded to leave to “safe areas” – which could even mean they aren’t leaving the country. How exactly did this account for 700,000 Palestinians? As Flapan explains “some such statements were actually issued, but they were intended to stop the panic that was causing the masses to abandon their villages.” In many cases the Arab governments closed the borders to refugees on some occasions and sent back men of military age – and sometimes didn’t give residency to the refugees. It would be illogical if the Arab governments demanded the Palestinians leave, only to close their borders to these same people…
The fact is that on a historical level, one simple quote isn’t enough evidence to prove your claim, especially when this claim is without any analysis or context.

Again, this is also useless since it is not primary evidence demanding the Palestinians to evacuate. Surely an order of such importance must be traceable somewhere? During 1948, while the actual war was commencing, most the papers in the Arab world were asserting the opposite. This quote is from again, 1954, years after the war had ended, it has no context to substantiate the claim either. During the war, this same paper al-Difa’ reported on 22 April 1948, carried a statement by the Arab Higher Committee which asks the Palestinians to stay and bare their ground, “The duty of the defense of the Holy Land rests upon us, the people of Palestine, first and foremost.”

Please provide primary evidence of an order… The evidence doesn’t support this statement. This is getting quite repetitive, the said statement was from 1951, not 1948 according to the quote. I want the original quote asking the Palestinian Arabs to leave, one that was said during the war. And then proper analysis and evidence to back up that this was the main cause of the exodus. Until you provide us with such, these secondary sourced, out of date, vague, quotes are useless.

It is particularly a useless because we know nothing of this “Habib Issa” and his claim. If he was referring that Azzam Pasha was giving the “brotherly advice to leave” then he is incorrect. In April 1948 both Azzam Pasha, and King Abduallah issued public calls to the Arabs not to leave their homes. This wasn’t their first appeal either, as Benny Morris explains that both Azzam Pasha and Abdullah “issued well-publicized calls to the Palestinian refugees to return to their homes” this was done specifically on “5 May the appeal said ‘every man of strength and wisdom, every young person of power and faith [from Palestine], who has left the country, let him return to the dear spot. No one should remain outside the country exept the right and the old.’” Morris further states that “Abduallah went on to thank ‘those of you who have remained where they are in spite f the tyranny now prevailing’ and went out of his way to cite the Jewish Agency condemnation of massacre at Deir Yassin.” Even the commander of the Arab Liberation Army Fawzi al-Qawukji was given instructions to stop the flight by force.

Again, you are unable to provide any specific date the order was made, who made it, and what the order had said.

First off, Abbas made no appeals for the Arabs to leave, and didn’t provide evidence of any of these alleged demands either. Mahmoud Abbas has also written that “as we commemorate another year of our expulsion — which we call the nakba, or catastrophe” and “Zionist forces expelled Palestinian Arabs to ensure a decisive Jewish majority in the future state of Israel, and Arab armies intervened.”

Also perhaps you should provide the full text of Mahmoud Abbas’s writing from 1976. Again, this doesn’t prove 700,000 Palestinians left their homes.

 

They left because of many things.
The funny thing is that palestinian supporters will only show their side of things, while israeli supporters will only show their side of things.
The truth lies somewhere in between.

 

Then would you mind proving Borat's claim for us?

 

Palestinian refugees aren't loyal to Israel--and want to destroy Israel. They can't return with that type of attitude. Rewriting of history doesn't change that no matter who is doing the re-writing.

 

Such lists of evidence are largely based on the propaganda of Shmuel Katz (a South African Jew), mainly presented in his book "Battleground: Fact and Fantasy in Palestine". He was a member of the high command of the Irgun Zionist terrorist organisation. He was appointed by David Ben-Gurion to "put our message in the correct light". A list of evidence of the Arab leadership's purported role was published in Commentary Magazine and posted on this forum by Abu Afak. This same list was later posted by I.Beletesri. [the links are now unfortunately broken].

It has most recently been posted by HBendor as the article my Mitchell G Bard quoted above, and an almost identical (but partial) list was posted a day before by Borat, here: http://www.politicalforum.com/middl...ial-debating-privileges-9.html#post1061867496 citing the following reference where the reader can avail themself of a more ample version of the 'proof' list - http://www.jewishfederations.org/page.aspx?id=121275.

Indeed, the lists are practically identical, down to the same spelling mistakes.

But let that not be a reason for excluding them from this Debate.

 

I would be interested to know what you feel are the Palestinian myths regarding what they call the Nakba ... their exodus.
Perhaps we can compare them to the Zionist list.
And then we can have a reasoned debate as to where "in between" the truth lies ---- supported hopefully by verifiable data from credible sources.

These key (and very emotional) periods in history may have taken place long ago, but they remain important because they form the basis on which modern judgements are made as to what is further justified or not; in other words what the background of cause-and-effect is to explain more recent attitudes and prejudices.

 

Yes i would.
Because i think that Borat is wrong, as you and klip are.
The truth is not one sided, yet all of you support only one side.

 

I don't see anything as myths.
As i understand, Khalil is palestinian, and probably, his parents lived here, grandparents, etc.
I am an israeli.
My mother's family lived here, my grandparents etc.

If you could ask my grandfather about that period, and khalil's grandfather about that period, you'll hear two completley different answers.
None of them is lying.

 

Can you substantiate the highlighted bit.

Because if you can't, then what you post is just "'Cause I say so". And that is underwhelming.

You see Uri, you equate this with supporting a side. My mission is to expose the Myths and to try to supply the reality, not to support sides.

If you were to ask ... OK, but why do you do so only for the Palestinian side; why don't you post support for that which is good in Israel (of which there is a huge amount) then my answer would be .... HMMMM.

My knee-jerk reaction is to say "It all started with my intense anger in 2002/2003 when I realised that Dubya had lied to me", and I wanted to know what other lies I had been fed. And I have been digging since that day, and where has it led me to?

 

So does that mean that you accept Borat's and HBendor's lists purportedly showing that it was the Arab leaders' calls to leave the zone of war that gave rise to the displacement of some 700 000 (about 80%) of Palestinians in Israel in 1947, and not the various actions of the Zionist military?

 

On the other hand, I refer to Shmuel Katz's list, we have a lesser number of web sites which post the following sort of contrary message - http://www.mediamonitors.net/calderon2.html - by Michael Lopez-Calderon:

Yet both HBendor and Borat have recently reposted what Lopez-Calderon calls 'the old "radio broadcasts" myth'.

So here is my take on the essence of Khalil's debate: Why are HBendor/Borat so willing to put their signatures under that LC calls a Myth? What is the balance of evidence between what HB/Borat provide, and what LC defends?

Is Uri correct and they are all partially correct with the truth "somewhere in between"?

 

I am a South African. I went to a conservative Afrikaans university. There I heard all sides of the Apartheid debate as an English-speaking white South African.

The ultra right-wing Afrikaners believed that god gave them the right to control the destiny of the country. They believed in the sanctity of Kristelike Afrikaner Nationalisme.

My 'coloured' friends from the Mountain Club couldn't disagree more vehemently. They firmly believed that they too had a right to have a say in the destiny of the country.

They were not both correct with the truth somewhere in the middle. Apartheid was WRONG!! So from my own blood core, I seek the balance of evidence, and not "they are both kind of right". That is one reason why I bust Myths.

 

I'm saying....I don't care.

We are in the here and now.

The Palestinians want to destroy Israel...not become a part of it. Jordan can take the refugees. As a matter a fact, Jordan can take back the ones they kicked out of their own country. Or restore Jordanian citizenship for those Palestinians for which it was revoked. Jordan has a long history, well documented of expelling citizens of Palestinian origin. Go after them for a change.

http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=167512

 

That is quite the generalization...

 

As Jonsa said in the "other" thread there ere calls by the arab leaders to leave the area.
There was also fear of what might happened to those who stayed in the places where war was raging.
There were also those Israelis who just demolished arab places of residence so they would flee, and never come back.
There were also jewish areas which were cleansed of their jewish population by the winning arab armies.
It was war, and it was dirty.

What you call Myth, i call reality.
The reality of war, the fear that was spreading both in the jewish communities and in the arab communities.

 

South Africa is a whole different scenario.
I know that you think that it's not, but as a South African you know a lot, first hand, of what it was like there.
As an israeli i know a lot, first hand, of what it is like here.

Occupation is bad, it should end, but it has nothing to do with what South Africa was about.
What happens here has no relation to race, religion, skin color, or whatever else apartheid was about.
What happens here is a continuation of hostilities started many years ago, lack of basic trust, and religious fundementalism.

 

First of all, is anybody in disagreement with the original posts.

Here let me put it for you simply. The vast majority of Palestinians left their homes due to Zionist military assaults on their villages. Other factors included straight out expulsion, fear of being caught up in the fighting due to the influence of the fall or exodus of other towns, or psychological warfare geared to obtaining an Arab flight from the village. On the other hand, Borat's claim of Palestinians leaving on "Arab orders" is patently false. There is no evidence to suggest that most of the Palestinians left due to orders by the demand of Arab countries. If you would want to claim the Arab countries are directly responsible for a large amount of the exodus, please respond to the original posts, otherwise, prove it through actual facts.

You merely claimed that there were calls by Arab leaders to "leave the area", I'm asking you to prove it. Give particular events to substantiate your claim. Where are the direct orders? After all, almost half of the exodus of about 300,000 Palestinians occurred before intervention of the neighboring Arab countries.

Nobody is in a dispute whether or not this was a war. As the title of this very thread reads "1948 War." The facts are as it is though, that during this war, the Zionists had a precalculated plan to drive the Palestinians from their homes, and this is what caused the vast majority of the exodus.

I will leave another post with further explanation tonight...

 

Khalil, you already know that i'm not someone who digs up old documents on the internet.
In any case, you probably know this one -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes...aders.27_endorsement_of_flight.22_explanation

About the "Zionists had a precalculated plan to drive the Palestinians from their homes, and this is what caused the vast majority of the exodus", you know that thos is disputed.

In any case - I'm sorry, but don't care.

You keep trying to lay all the blame on the israeli side, while i am saying that the blame lies on both sides.
There can never be any progress with this way of thinking.

 

I accept what you say, but it is not very incisive because all it says that both sides contributed to the Arab flight, and makes no mention of the degree to which each side's contribution cause the exodus. Let us try to answer that gap.

That question (as posted in the 'other thread' by Khalil) was answered by Benny Morris. In 'Key to Map 2' on pages xiv to xviii of the 2004 edition of his book "The Birth of the Palestinian Problem revisited" he provides the main reason (as derived from a series of Israeli, UN, US, and British archives) why each of the settlements were depopulated of Palestinians. I believe that this provides a useful measure of this degree of complicity. Morris classifies 392 depopulated ('ethnically cleansed') Palestinian villages. The reason for the vacancy of 47 of them remains unknown. The remaining 345 settlements I believe provide the answer, which is as follows:

Complicity in the cause of the Palestinian exodus: Arabs 5 / Israeli military 340. That's where the "somewhere in between" lies.

I propose that as by answer to Khalil's OP

 

This sums up morris pretty well -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_1948_Palestinian_exodus#Morris.27s_Four_Waves_analysis

from the table on the right -
military assault on settlement = 215 (this is war)
influence of nearby town's fall = 59
expulsion by Jewish forces = 53
fear (of being caught up in fighting) = 48
whispering campaigns = 15
abandonment on Arab orders = 6
unknown = 44

so, from 440 known cases, 53 were because of expulsion by Jewish forces.
thats 12%
As i keep saying - the truth is somewhere in between.
Most of the palestinians left since there was a war going on where they were living.

you can look at the numbers in the bottom table -
In the third and fourth wave expulsions were involved.
lets say that 50% were expelled in these waves, and use the larger estimates.
That's 165,000.
out of 770000.
21%

And again -
As i keep saying - the truth is somewhere in between.
Most of the palestinians left since there was a war going on where they were living.