This is a pretty difficult subject to discuss so I thought I would try and take the lead, because I'm all about quality and raising the bar and so on I also like to number things. Some people hate it but I picked up the habit in law school, it makes it much easier to get people to acknowledge every point or to criticize specific points. I know this is the internet and most people won't put in that much effort anyway, but I think it helps people to understand and criticize my argument. So without further ado: 1. I was pro-choice really firmly until I was about 20. At that point, I met a woman who told me that she could instinctively tell that her child was alive and that killing it so that she could continue having sex with random boys would be, at best, a very selfish act. This confused me because, in listening to hostile left-wingers on campus, it had never occurred to me that a woman could have a different opinion, based upon instinct, an opinion that differs from the left-wing opinion on abortion. After all, the left erroneously presents their opinion as being the female opinion when in fact women are statistically more likely to be pro-life than men are. 2. As the years went on, I noticed that most women who got abortions were not doing it to "empower" themselves as the left likes to euphemistically put it, they do it so that they can provide better for another or other children later on. They weren't dressing down the significance of their act; most of them feel bad about it. It was a private thing, viewed as a shameful necessity and most women who get an abortion seem to feel that way, or at least those I have encountered and spoken with felt that way. 3. Eventually I did date a girl who was lazy about birth control and said she would get an abortion so that we could keep having sex. I told her she didn't have to, but she got angry and said that she knew her child was alive and that it was her right to kill it because it was hers. If you juxtapose this position to anecdote #1 here, it really says something about what those two women are relatively like from a moral standpoint. In conclusion, I realized something really profound one day: most women who get abortions are not irredeemable people, but some of them are. A woman who gets many abortions is almost surely irresponsible about contraception, irresponsible about sex and does not believe that human life has inherent value. I'm personally fine with acknowledging abortion as a proxy issue, I don't condemn all women who get abortions because it can be a very complicated thing, but all sorts of psychopaths out themselves when talking about "abortion rights" and maybe a right to murder something because you have a monopoly of power over it doesn't square with classically liberal values and belongs in the shadows.
LOL! Right on cue, Sam! What "baby" are you talking about, you know there's no babies involved in abortion..... And, yes, I know you don't believe in human rights for women....
A fetus's right to life is more important than a woman's right to have sex for fun without any consequences. The OP stated that that's the reason why many women have abortions-because they want to live a carefree life. What I find especially disgusting is pro choice people who argue that because a woman has the right to control her body for the most selfish petty reasons, it's wrong to CPCs to encourage her to do the right thing and keep the baby, simply because "it's the woman's business". - - - Updated - - - I do believe in human rights.
Name me one reason people choose to have children that isn't a selfish reason. Most people choose to have children for selfish reasons, merely WANTING a child is selfish. So welcome to the two way street where nearly everything we do as humans is totally selfish. No, it is wrong for CPCs to LIE to women and use our tax dollars to do so. I don't care if they lie to people on their own dime, but when they do it on mine I have a problem with it.
I believe she stated it right here very clearly: """"Most people choose to have children for selfish reasons, merely WANTING a child is selfish."" Doing what you want is selfish for ANYONE not just women........and so what? Having a baby because YOU want one is selfish..
Law school eh? Then I take it you have heard of McFall v Shimp? This court case makes it quite clear that no human being may use another human being's body for anything including survival. I respect her right to not have an abortion as long as she respects my right to have one if I want to. She also assumes too much. Maybe she was sleeping around with random boys but there are plenty of women in totally monogamous relationships that still have abortions. Also thought I'd mention that I personally can't think of a single unselfish reason to have a child. Can you? And I am of the opinion that is what it typically is. Most women will face at least one abortion in their lives due to a variety of reasons, they will typically find it to be a mistake that was preventable and then go on to make a better effort to prevent it from happening again, go on with their lives and eventually settle down and have a family. You are basing your entire opinion on this issue from your own personal anecdotal experiences. If you really were in law school you would know that anecdotal evidence typically doesn't fly in court since it is hearsay and cannot be proven. Also why would you base your entire opinion on your experience with literally two women when there are millions and millions of women around the world with totally different experiences, opinions and personalities? In conclusion I would say you need far more data and far more experiences with far more women before you can conclude anything about this issue or about the women involved with it. I assure you no woman cares if you condemn them or not on this issue. It's a personal one and they don't typically talk about it to people and especially not strangers on the net. Also the right to have an abortion is more about the right to deny the use of your body or parts of it from others for any purpose including survival. If we want to gestate a fetus for nine months or NOT that should be our choice as it directly affects our physical autonomy and health and carries plenty of life-changing risks with it.
There have been numerous attempts to raise the bar so to speak from myself included, and yet I find when you dig deep enough most people resort to the same old things. I commend you for trying it though. Have no worries I am more than happy to detail every point and to provide evidence to support those points. For myself I was the polar opposite to you, I was firmly pro-life until I really started to research the issue, what I found is that, by far, the majority of pro-lifers use their religious bias in the abortion debate. The more I researched the more I realized that most pro-lifers are not entirely honest, I also realized that the focus of the abortion issue was always about what the fetus is and not what it does. As a law student (or whatever) you already know that there are laws in place that regulate the 'damage' one person can do to another based on consent, and that consent to one person for one action cannot be transferred to another person for a different action without the acceptance of the person who gave the original consent. It is a common myth that it is the man who makes the woman pregnant, this is factually incorrect, without the fertilized ovum there would be no pregnancy and as such it is that fertilized ovum that makes the woman pregnant. If the fertilized ovum is recognized in law as a person bestowed with all the rights of that status and as is already the case receives a certain amount of protection from the state then it must receive consent for imposing itself onto the woman. With that it is easy to see that as soon as a woman says, by word or action, 'no' to being pregnant the fetus is legally harming her, and as the state is obligated to help protect people against unconsented harm they must help in order to stop that harm occurring. This idea of empowerment is an error propagated by pro-lifers, it simply does not matter the reasons a woman wishes to get an abortion, they are irrelevant, the fact is that in legal terms ANY unconsented injury is against the law and the state has a duty to protect it's people from those unconsented injuries, and as such should be funding abortions regardless of the reasoning for a woman wanting one. Then this girl was in error, no one can own another person (if that is what a zef is), what she does have the right to do, based on current laws, is to expect the state to help protect her against unconsented injuries. As far as the moral implications are concerned, they have no place in the abortion debate IMHO, what may be moral for one person, may not be for another. Governments enforce moral principles based on the impact on the whole of the society should that moral principle be ignored . .abortion creates no impact on society as a whole. Please explain what you mean by "most women who get abortions are not irredeemable people", in what way do they need redeeming, also please explain your justification for there being an inherent value to human life, and just to make it clear I take inherent to mean - existing in something as a permanent, essential, or characteristic attribute - if you define it another way please state what your definition is so there is no confusion in later responses. I tend to step a little away from abortion rights, the focus for me is as stated at the start of my reply, that the focus requires shifting away from what the fetus is to what it does. Based on the current legal standings abortion, even if the fetus is acknowledged as a person, is not murder, it would fall under the jurisdiction of self-defence.
As an aside to this main discussion & as a comment on McFall vs Shrimp. Here in NZ it is illegal not to render aid to another person if you can do so without putting yourself in danger and even then a police officer can request your assistance even in a dangerous situation and it is illegal not to comply. Fascinating ain't it?
That's a bit messed up. If you don't feel like you're capable of rescuing someone or you don't want to put yourself in danger to help someone else you should not be forced to do so.
I'm morally opposed to abortion myself. Rather than explain in great detail the intellectual and emotional motivations for my own personal opinion, I'll just say that I would be opposed to legislation, such as currently exists in China, for instance, that would mandate involuntary abortions. At the same time, I don't condone legislation, such as existed in the US prior to Roe v. Wade, that criminalizes abortion. I am of the opinion that my moral position regarding abortion is politically irrelevant. So far as politics and legislation are concerned, one either wants to criminalize abortion, or not. There really is no middle position. The debate concerns whether we, as a society, desire to imprison people for having an abortion.
and if more people thought like this then the abortion debate would be moot. I disagree, while I am of the opinion that abortion should be available at anytime for any reason during the pregnancy - my reasoning being that it is not important whether the fetus is a person or not but what is important is what the fetus does - I can also compromise to a time period where the fetus has reached a sentient level .. which BTW is pretty much what the current abortion legislation adheres to.
I have no problem with the current limitation of Roe v. Wade, regarding limiting voluntary abortions to the early term of pregnancy. I do, however, have a problem with those who rail about "late-term" abortions in order to gain emotional support for their ideological position. I've known people who had to have this rare medical procedure performed. A late term abortion is not done for birth control, and it sickens me to see people use these horrific medical tragedies as a political football.
Because so many Anti-Choicers claim they have intimate knowledge of every woman's medical history because thousands of women seek them out specially to tell them all about their abortions and how sad they are about it.... Funny, I have never had one woman tell me about her abortion and most women I know know I'm Pro-Choice..
Same here, and before I was married I played the field with vigor, yet none said a thing like what the OP said, they must be a very good listener.
Good post. I think the big problem is many young people not wanting to accept the consequences their actions may bring.
