Why Marijuana Should Not Be Decriminalized Right Now

Perhaps because people in general have grown up and won't be dictated to by supercilious, holier-than-thou finger-waggers, who think they know better, anymore. Oh, and the 'good old days' never existed, and there have always been counter-cultures.

 

you do realize it's fairly recent history that republicans started the prohibition on Marijuana right?

 

Yeah, funny how SM thinks "all the generations before" wanted pot criminalized. The founding fathers' generation sure didn't. Basically, you have to revere Nixon above George Washington to see things like SM sees them.

 

I think he means the "higher" level - maaaaan.

 

Daggdag, I would almost consider decriminalization if I even suspected society would be tough on those who endanger society through their drug use. Obviously I don't. And I'm not just worried about car drivers, I'm worried about truck drivers, heavy equipment operators, surgeons, teachers, cops, and judges, all of whom you don't want to be half-baked when they're doing their jobs. As stated in my OP, I don't think the Pothead Left is pushing for responsible use of marijuana with severe consequences for irresponsible behavior. As I said, they think it's a God given right.

 

Prohibition reduced the amount of drinking because, in the end, most people are law abiding citizens who not only obey the law, but remove from their lives criminal associations and wares.

Which ones? I'll report them to the police forthwith.

It doesn't bother you that 10% of young people are smoking dope? It bothers me because I'm smart enough to understand what that does to the GDP of a nation. By the way, what is the GDP of those countries? Dammn near zero, isn't it?

You do.

That's a very ignorant axiom with no hard evidence to back it up. Alcohol is legal and in nearly every home. Pot is illegal and nearly all homes are bereft of it. The math doesn't work in your favor.

Try this on for size. Prohibitionists like myself don't care a whit about the decisions people make that don't endanger my family, friends, and the community I live in. What ruins the lives of "millions" is drug abuse, pure and simple. Drugs suck people into a downward spiral of addiction, atrophy, and eventually death. Jail time is the point at which a lot of people turn their lives around, get clean and sober, and start to recuperate their losses. I'm glad that we do something to put the brakes on the plummet that overtakes people when they unwisely decide to abuse drugs.

 

And yet you're an enthusiastic supporter of both.

 

You do realize that the founding fathers were most likely stoned when they wrote the Constitution, don't you?

 

I'm more inclined to believe you are stoned right now writing this post. Way to sell me on the idea that potheads don't suffer from brain damage!

 

While I am all in favor of gradualization- decriminalization is a reasonable preliminary step...I point out once again to our experience with the Prohibition- criminal activities go down when Prohibition is repealed, alcoholism rates actually went down, as more people drank more responsibly.

I want to keep this conversation on marijuana itself to stay focused. We know that marijuana is not addictive- not in a scientific way.

Treat marijuana in the same manner that we currently treat alcohol and the total cost to our society goes down. Yes- individuals may have some negative consequences from legalization- but then again individual adults- not the government- will be the ones deciding whether to indulge or not.

 

As I, and many others have said here- you are just plain wrong.

We- and most rational people debating the subject- want the sale and use of marijuana treated exactly as alcohol is now- meaning that adults would be allowed to purchase and consume marijuana.

Oddly enough you called that 'statism'.

 

Why don't you face the fact that all you "rational" people pushing for this just want to get high. In my experience, the simplest explanation is often the correct one. And redefining statism hardly bolsters your argument. Conservatives want governemnt to do all those things it's empowered and expected to do, especially keeping the public safe. Statists want government that grows without limits. If you didn't smoke so much pot, the distinction wouldn't escape you.

 

I left out 'Amsterdam" when I mentioned Koffee Houses- my bad. Marijuana is unofficially legal in the Netherlands- it can be bought directly and openly at Koffee Houses.

The result? The Netherlands rate of marijuana usage is not notably different from other European countries- notably next door Germany. If as you claim that legalization would lead to a rush in new usage- why does the Netherlands have a lower use rate than Germany?


In the Netherlands 9.5% of young adults (aged 15–34) consume soft drugs once a month, comparable to the level of Finland (8%), Latvia (9,7%) and Norway (9.6%) and less than in the UK (13.8%), Germany (11,9%), Czech Republic (19,3%), Denmark (13,3%), Spain (18.8%), France (16,7%), Slovakia (14,7%) and Italy (20,9%) but higher than in Bulgaria (4,4%), Sweden (4,8%), Poland (5,3%) or Greece (3,2%).[27][28]

"It doesn't bother you that 10% of young people are smoking dope?"

No- not really. I am against non-adults using dope but these are 15-34 year olds using once a month. More though I recognize that making it illegal clearly has no effect- since Germany and the UK both have higher use rates than the Netherlands.

If it bothers you that 10% of young people are smoking dope- then you logically would want it legalized- since the Netherlands has a lower usage than where it is illegal.

GDP growth- 2nd quarter 2012
U.S. .4%
Netherlands .2%
Germany .3%

Hmmm not much of a correction to GDP growth and marijuana usage- Germany which has higher dope usage has a higher GDP than the Netherlands.

Oh and smoking rates for the U.S. 18-25? 18.1% as of 2009.....

 

Originally Posted by SFJEFF
Who supports the increase of drug use?

Why do you continue to lie about me?

What compels you to lie to further your position?

 

You have provided no 'math' to counter my arguments. Alcohol is legal and easily obtained by adults, however due to increased crackdowns and stings on alcohol purchases it is harder for minors to obtain alcohol now.

But pot? Pot is just as illegal when sold to an adult or a child. A liquor store faces losing his livelyhood if he sells to kids- a pot dealer has the same risk selling to anyone- but his profit motive is higher.

Regardless- Prohibition on Marijuana is a failure because it is so easily obtained- from criminals.

 

Pure rationalization for what is at the heart of it a Puritanical motivation that you know better than the individual what they should be doing, and human vices must be quashed.

Most people use drugs occasionally and responsibly. We see that with alcohol sales. Marijuana is more similar to alcohol(albeit not addictive or poisonous like alcohol) than any drug I know of.

Marijuana doesn't lead to a 'downward spiral of addiction, atrophy and eventual death'- because marijuana is not addictive. Marijuana can be abused- just as for instance gambling can be abused. But as a society we are harmed more by Prohibition than we are by letting individuals make their own decisions.

 

'the fact'?

As an adult, I can- and do- regularly purchase alcohol. I particularly like wine and beer, occasionally(a few times a year) indulging in hard alcohol. I can get 'high' with alcohol legally any time I as an adult desire to. As an adult, I have been drinking for around 30 years. Unlike most of my peers, I didn't start drinking until I was legally allowed to.

I do like to smoke pot- but I rarely do. The reasons have nothing to do with availability- buying pot is only slightly more complicated than buying alcohol. I have access to pot anytime I want it. Legalizing it would not personally make getting high any 'easier' since i can get high on dope anytime I want to now.

Why are you trying to change the subject though?

Your claim:

Originally Posted by saintmichaeldefendthem
As stated in my OP, I don't think the Pothead Left is pushing for responsible use of marijuana with severe consequences for irresponsible behavior. As I said, they think it's a God given right.

My response:

As I, and many others have said here- you are just plain wrong.

We- and most rational people debating the subject- want the sale and use of marijuana treated exactly as alcohol is now- meaning that adults would be allowed to purchase and consume marijuana.

I just refuted your wild claim that : I don't think the Pothead Left is pushing for responsible use of marijuana with severe consequences for irresponsible behavior

I pointed out that I have and others have argued for responsible use and pointed out that when I argued for marijuana laws like alcohol laws you argued against me.

You knew I was arguing for responsible usage of marijuana. Why did you make this false claim?

Why are you trying to change the subject?

 

Wrong.

Your stats are crap. Try this on for size:

Year 2006. The United States is a GDP monster and nobody else comes close. Look where your POS pothead nations come in at. Did you actually think you could throw a quarterly stat at me and pass it off as the big picture?

And you're making the case that marijuana isn't addictive? According to the CDC, marijuana is preferred more than cigarettes in this age bracket. 39% of young adults that tried cigarettes became addicted to it while a whopping 57% of kids who tried marijuana became regular users. Based on a 2011 survey of over 15,000 students, it's more reliable than many of the studies that the Potheads use to proliferate the myth that marijuana is less harmful than cigarettes or alcohol.

 

Honestly, you're right. I just want to get high and I feel like it's my right. I live in Washington where (TOMORROW!) anyone over 21 will be able to possess up to an ounce on them without criminal penalties. Simply put I don't believe it's the role of the government to watch over us and tell us what is good for us and what is not. People abuse legal drugs all the time and a day doesn't go by when I don't hear about some drug being recalled because it gives people cancer or kills them. If I want to get high responsibly then that should be my decision.

 

Seriously- what are you talking about?

You revived this thread- by responding to this 2011 post by myself:

Treat and regulate Marijuana just like alcohol.

Seriously stupid argument that anyone is arguing that smoking marijuana should be a right- the argument is really just the opposite- the government shouldn't be making marijuana illegal. Government should not be in the business of jailing people for their personal behaviour.

Jail someone for driving while stoned, not for growing a pot plant in their back yard.

Regulate, tax, just like alcohol. Prohibition was a failure with alcohol, its a failure with marijuana.

Here is your response(13 months later):

I'm never surprised when I see the Left making this argument. You're all statists and have no problem giving more and more power to government.

So lets recap:

You accused all of us "Leftists" of not wanting responsible marijuana laws- after you responded to my post where I suggest exactly that.

You also accuse me of being a 'statist' for wanting responsible marijuana laws.

So if I get this straight- you think that anyone who doesn't want responsible marijuana laws is a Leftist, and anyone who does want responsible marijuana laws is Statist.

Basically you think that only someone who agrees with you is a 'real' conservative.

 

Now, if I was prone to personal attacks I would say something similar in return.

However, I am focused on presenting rational arguments to counter the irrational Puritanical rationals for Prohibition.

 

You really don't know economics at all do you?

First of all- you produced a gross GDP per country from 2006- this is 6 years out of date. And it is gross GDP, not GDP growth- which is what I was referring to.

GDP by country is not the same thing as GDP growth rate by country. One measures total output- and not surprisingly the U.S. has more output than countries half our size.

But you miss the point- we have a higher rate of pot usage than those countries- and by your own numbers clearly it is not measurably affecting our GDP.

You claimed that pot usage stifles GDP- but the numbers don't show any correlation at all.

FAIL

 

Come on- don't be so duplicitous. Addictive is not the same thing as 'regular user' as you imply.

If you want to try to prove that marijuana is addictive- maybe you should cite something that says marijuana is addictive.

Sigh.

I am going to make a rational response- while not expecting any such consideration in return.

'harmful' means a wide variety of things- it can mean addictive(like cigarettes), poisonous(like alcohol) or causing other health problems.

Marijuana is not physically addictive like cigarettes(which are very addictive) or alcohol. Heavy marijuana users who stop using marijuana will not go through physical withdrawal as in the case of cigarettes or alcohol- no 'shakes' or possible convulsions. Some marijuana users experience depression when they stop using it.

But here is the thing- and I admit this is anecdotal- I literally know hundreds of pot smokers who stopped smoking either permanently or for years at a time- and I never noticed it with any of them- they just stopped. Ever been around someone quitting cigarettes? I always can tell when someone is quitting cigarettes. Always.

Alcohol and tobacco are litarlly poisonous- you can kill yourself by injesting too much of either. It is not possible to kill yourself with marijuana- not by overconsumption- at least not at any levels realitiscally possible. Thousands of people die from alcohol poisoning every year. None do so from 'marijuana poisoning'.

Finally- other. We know of the long term health problems from the abuse of alcohol...but occasional use appears to cause no harm. Cigarettes, again long term and heavy usage leads to all sorts of problems.

We don't know whether marijuana creates similar problems. It may. But long term studies have been impeded by its very illegality. But should we ban marijuana if its health consequences are similar to cigarettes? Seems rather short sighted to me.

Banning marijuana is not preventing its usage- bringing it out into the open could lead to decent science on it.