One thing never ceases to amaze me on here, and that is the number of Americans who are only to willing to accept the state line, word for word, then parrot it out, into the public domain. Indeed, it seems that their desire to support the state account of, well, pretty much the World, is almost exclusively passionate for a modern Western people, for I cannot think of any other whose people treat the state, and what they tell them, as being like 'gospel'. On the contrary, you will often find the people of other nation's v critical of the foreign policy of their state, if that policy involves any sort of conflict, invasion, or occupation. Nor do they mind if any other criticises it either - for instance, if someone wished to criticise American and British presence in Iraq and Afghani, I would be okay with that, because what the British Gov of that time did IS deserving of criticism. But with some right wingers in the US, a strange thing seems to have taken place - at some point, they stopped being individuals, and began thinking of themselves as part of the state. And, on that basis, it follows that they take any criticism of US state foreign policy, as a criticism of them, and any attack on that policy, as a personal attack on them. Once upon a time, the idea of a Russian communist, in the minds of many in the West, would (among other things), be someone reading a Pravda, and believing themselves to be a part of an almost living entity - the state. Yet, what really is the difference between the state communist reading Pravda for his 'facts', and an American, subjected to what is a media churned out to them, that suits the agenda of corporate and political elites? What really is the difference between the idea of a Russian communist regarding themselves as a part of their state, ready to excuse it at any cost, and Americans today, doing the same thing? It makes no sense for them to parrot the state line, and strikes me as distinctly unAmerican in nature, to be honest. If they are bombarded with absurdly bias media, how can they hope to make an informed decision? Is an informed decision even important to many people, these days? They are not getting paid to parrot the state line, so what is the motive? The state line has often proven to be partially false, entirely false, or distorted, esp on international matters. What incentive would you have to put faith in a proven liar? Would you do it in your personal life? The state/system, and their affiliates, they even have a history of experimenting on Americans that did not give them the authority, nor were they aware. Again, with a history like that, how could you possibly trust the state? But the main thing I do not get, is this mentality that a criticism of US state foreign policy = an attack on 'Americans'. It really doesn't, not UNLESS you DO define yourself by the state. It tends to be a mentality that exists among more American right wingers than any other, and I often wonder if they 'borrowed' the tactic from the right wing Zionists, who, for several years now, have dined out on using the anti semite card, lest anyone be critical of Israeli state policy. What they do, doesn't need to be what you do. How they tell you to think, doesn't need to be to be how you think. Their enemies do not need to be your enemies. Jack
I think it's just kind like your local highschool football team -- lots of people just like to cheer for their side, sharing in the drama and tension, the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat. Morality doesn't really come into it -- it's just a matter of feeling like you belong to something.
What is wrong with just being yourself, without this desire to want to belong to something, esp if that something lies, cheats and steals? If you are going to be part of something, it must be possible to belong to something that does not routinely lie, cheat and steal? Surely you do not take the word of a state who have been proven to lie, like almost no other? Proven to engineer conflicts, now as a matter of routine, and have pre con for experiments on Americans, in a mannner that could be right out of the Nazi science handbook. If you want to belong to something, if anyone needs to fill that sense of belonging, then would it not be a more noble gesture to belong to something which is against that?
Have you read any history about Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia? If you want to see people touting the State line than you cannot find better examples than that. Your claiming that this is a western thing is utterly ridiculous and flies in the face of history. If you want modern examples just look at North Korea.
I have family in the US, they are older than me, my dad's age (70's), and they tell me that this psyche among Americans, of taking criticism of US state foreign policy personally, as if it is an attack on them, or as if the State Foreign Policy is a living creature, with feelings, is relatively new. I can believe that. I think the political and media elites have encouraged that thinking, indeed, Bush said it himself, when he was President 'If you're not with us, you're against us'. Naturally, he doesn't tell you that by 'us', he really means the political and corporate elites, not the people. It also takes the unusual position of assuming anyone that may have a different perspective, to be an enemy, rather than someone with a different perspective. But I think the attack part that = a criticism of US state policy with an attack on 300million Americans, has been borrowed, by the US Neo Cons, from their Zionist friends, who for decades, have managed to make gain with a version of it... [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0kWAqZxJVE"]"Anti-semitic, its a trick we always use it" - YouTube[/ame]
Yes I have, what's your point? They are dead now, little I can do about either. I would imagine if the net existed, back in the day, I would be asking Germans how they could suck up the state line, when it was obvious that their state was acting in an unethical, invasive, and occupying manner. But since they are all dead, I wonder why so many modern day Americans repeat the state line, esp after it has been shown, time and again, that they are misled and lied to.
You make no sense. Any policy put out by any party will have literally scores of complaints about it. Can you give me one thing that has been universally accepted as gospel that's been put out by our government? This whole thread has not one shred of evidence to support your claim. In Germany or Russia everyone touted their State line for fear of death. You couldn't speak out.
This: "is almost exclusively passionate for a modern Western people, for I cannot think of any other whose people treat the state, and what they tell them, as being like 'gospel'.
Yes - I stand by that, and I am not alone in being puzzled by it. As far as Western nations go, it does seem to be an exclusive trait, exhibited by some Americans, to take a criticism of the actions of their state, as a criticism of them. We have members from other Western countries on this site, and quite a few of them - yet not a one of them has, in my view, taken a criticism of their state, to be an attack on them personally.
