Of course if the hospital staff had recognized that her life was in danger I'm sure they would have given her the abortion that she and her husband requested... but even the professionals do not always know when a situation is life-threatening. Therefore, you have no basis to argue when a woman fears that her life may be in danger. Nobody knows in advance if they are going to be the next Savita Halappanavar. I notice you never refuted (but also avoided admitting) that I can defend my home even if the intruder never harmed me or my family before I shot him (based on my fear that the intruder might cause harm).
Can't you ever answer a question? Why would she stay in India ??? What did India have to do with it? She was in Ireland.
The answer is simple. The mortality rate in India is 33 times higher than Ireland, so this irrelevant anecdotal example (which isn't really an example at all), is not an example of a problem with Ireland. - - - Updated - - - Perhaps you can explain how an abortion would have saved her from an E coli infection that had nothing to do with her pregnancy.
There's no indication that an abortion would have saved her life, as the medical team did not correctly identify the infection and give her the correct medication when she first presented. http://www.nationalrighttolifenews....vita-halappanavars-tragic-death/#.WDttWn0e2zs What this is is another great example of medical "professionals" killing another person due to medical error. In the US alone hospitals kill half a MILLION people a year due to mistakes. Besides, there are also cases where women have died from the abortion procedure itself, so this anecdotal incident is proof of nothing.
The pregnancy weakened her system. She knew she was in distress (she returned to the hospital several times). She and her husband feared that the pregnancy might be injuring her and they requested an abortion. They were told that Ireland "is a Catholic country" and her life was not at risk. Obviously, the pregnant woman was right and the professionals were wrong, so you would be talking with your head in the sand if you claimed that a woman should only get an abortion if the professionals agree that her life is at risk. Reference: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/20/w...care-in-death-of-indian-woman-in-ireland.html The six-man, five-woman jury agreed that Ms. Halappanavar, 31, died from “medical misadventure” involving the failure of the hospital’s staff to identify, document or address her development of blood poisoning. Ms. Halappanavar’s husband, Praveen, said the hospital staff refused to give his wife an abortion even though her fetus had no chance of survival, citing the country’s Roman Catholic social policies against abortions. The staff waited three days until the 17-week-old fetus had died. By then Ms. Halappanavar was in an advanced state of septicemia, and she died four days later. The six-man, five-woman jury ruled that Ms. Halappanavar, who was a dentist, died from “medical misadventure,” meaning incompetence in her care. In other words, if the staff had been willing to perform the abortion while the fetal heart was beating, the pregnant woman would have been able to recover from the infection.
Abortion or not, she would have died anyway because they did not treat the e coli infection with the correct drugs. The pregnancy is relevant only because the doctors assumed the "back pain" was due to the pregnancy. They screwed up the diagnosis, that's the bottom line. Getting an abortion would not have saved her.
(1) Your claim "she would have died anyway" is unsupported. You do not know that she would have died if they had given her the abortion on Day 1. The presence of the fetus obviously changed the way the hospital staff approached the problem because they were trying to protect the fetus when they should have been protecting the actual person in their care. (2) You obviously agree that the doctors are not always right ("They screwed up the diagnosis") so it would be wrong for you to claim that a woman should NOT trust her fear of bodily harm. Can you really claim the doctors are always right? By the way, you still never acknowledged that the castle doctrine allows me to shoot an intruder even if he has not actually injured me or my family. Do I have to go over to the gun control forum to get an answer on that?
The fetus has no impact on her infection. Aborting the fetus would not have cured the infection. She died, like half a million people die in the US, because doctors and nurses can't be bothered to do their jobs correctly. I didn't address castle doctine because attempting to draw an analogy between an adult breaking into your house and an abortion is ludicrous.
Interesting point of view, since the rest of you doctors seem to think aborting a fetus cures e. coli infections.
Your claim is unsupported. We know when they did NOT perform the abortion she died. That is a proven fact. You have only wishful thinking to support your claim that she still would have died if they had performed the abortion on Day 1. You state facts that are not in evidence. You based your argument against "abortion as self-defense" on your (faulty) representation of the rules of self-defense. If you can kill an intruder who has not actually injured you or your family, then your self-defense is based on your fear of what might happen. You don't have special rights, so a pregnant woman can get an abortion based on her fear of what that fetus might do to her. As you already stated, the doctors and nurses cannot always be bothered to do their jobs correctly, so a woman should follow her own instincts.
Please explain how the fetus gave her an e. coli infection then Dr. RO. Then explain how the abortion would have cured her, in your medical opinion. Let's hope an infant doesn't wander in your house so you can exercise your castle doctrine then.
So?? She was not in India she was in Ireland and as someone with wealth and means she could probably have afforded high level care in India which is at least on a par with the USA
The foetus was in all likelihood DEAD Even if still surviving rupture of the membranes can cause hideous deformities and loss of features and limbs : I give you a non biased source and you return with THE most biased source you could possibly link to :roll
None of that changes the fact that the fetus neither was the cause of the infection or her death, nor would an abortion have saved her. I included the link I did because clearly there is more to the story than: didn't get needed abortion, and died as a result. That's pretty much what your "unbiased" source tried to infer. Of course, when you look closer, it had nothing to do with her getting an abortion or not. Meanwhile in India, there is a time limit on abortions, and even so the doctors in India kill 33 times more women than Ireland. This anecdotal case really does nothing for your cause, since there are also anecdotal cases of women dying from the abortion procedure itself.
Well her money didn't help her in Ireland which is apparently 33 times better than India. She had a doctor who did not diagnose her problem correctly, and gave her Emycin which was useless for the type of infection she had. Misdiagnosis killed her, as it kills half a million people every year in this country. That's right, lazy doctors and nurses kill 15 times more people than are killed by homicide and suicide by gun in this country, combined. You'd think we'd have a forum dedicated to that, or at least a PSA. Maybe an irate billionaire or two slapping together an "Everytown vs. Doctor Stupidity" or something.
""""This anecdotal case really does nothing for your cause, since there are also anecdotal cases of women dying from the abortion procedure itself"""" Ya, it's a contest , highest score loses.... The woman died due to laws against abortion whether you think so or not. Whether women die in abortions or child birth or from heart surgery or hemmeroids or knee replacement and those things are not illegal.
The pregnancy represented a drain on her system. It weakened her body. It also changed the focus of the medical staff (they were more interested in saving the fetus than in saving the mother). She died as a result of an infection that the hospital staff could have treated if they had been willing to perform the abortion on Day 1. I note that you offer no legitimate source to support your imaginative theory that she would have died anyway. I also note your failure to adjust your definition of self-defense (instead, you try to deflect attention by suggesting scenarios that are NOT as likely to harm a person as pregnancy).
Facts not in evidence. She was misdiagnosed, like half a million other people in the US every year, and given an ineffective medication.
Women die from abortions. You guys are all aboard for everything else "that just saves one life". She didn't die from NOT having an abortion, she died from yet another medical misdiagnosis.
Your inability to address facts holds you back. When did you get your medical degree?? The woman died due to laws against abortion whether you think so or not. Whether women die in abortions or child birth or from heart surgery or hemmeroids or knee replacement doesn't matter, those things are not illegal.
Well then Dr FoxHastings let me ask you, since the last time I asked it went unanswered. In your medical opinion, how does one get an e. coli infection from a pregnancy, and how does an abortion then cure that infection?
I agree that you have no facts to support your contention that she would have survived even if they had performed an abortion on Day 1, whereas I found evidence that (1) she did actually die when the hospital staff refused to give her an abortion on Day 1, and (2) the jury agreed that the hospital staff was negligent (they failed to identify, document, or address her blood poisoning). Why? Because they were not willing to admit an abortion was necessary. Furthermore: Reference: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/10/19/abortion-mother-life-walsh/1644839/ Conditions that might lead to ending a pregnancy to save a woman's life include severe infections, heart failure and severe cases of preeclampsia, a condition in which a woman develops very high blood pressure and is at risk for stroke, says Erika Levi, a obstetrician and gynecologist at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill.
You can say refusal to give her an abortion led to her death, but it's a logical fallacy. Again, the abortion did not cause her infection, nor would it have been solved if there was an abortion. The infection was misdiagnosed, and led to the death of the child and the woman.
