"Wrong"

Okay, I just don't understand why you think your point of view is that important.

 

The distraction is in claiming that gays are not trying to force non-gays to engage in homosexual sex. That's not the problem, its not even a topic of discussion.

Its my belief that homosexuality is a sin. Its your belief that homosexuality is not a sin. But when I want silence on the morality of homosexuality (don't teach my children its not a sin) then you say its wrong. But when you want active promotion of your belief that homosexuality is not a sin, then its OK.

Do you see the double standard?

 

That's part of the problem, a lack of understanding. For some people, their religion is the central point of life and they will not abandon it. How would it be for a gay activist to abandon their lifestyle and become heterosexual? I oppose homosexuality, but I understand that some people are committed to it and their lives revolve around it. They are not going to abandon their homosexuality, the deeply religious are not going to abandon their religion. Laws can be passed, people punished and shunned and castigated, but the people are not going to go away. Everyone better learn to live and let live, accept that there will be some problems, and get on with their lives.

 

You're right, gays are not trying to force heterosexual people to adhere to their chosen morals... So what was your problem again?

I believe that lots of things are immoral and wrong. Take theft and fraud, for example. I don't believe that showing someone how a these acts occur is the equivalent of placing a positive moral value judgement on it. Information is neutral.

Telling a vegetarian the ingrediants of a meat-lover's pizza isn't forcing them to violate their dietary preferences any more than informing someone about homosexuals is forcing someone to become one.

Do you?

 

This still has nothing to do with religion. It is simply a crummy defense as it has been shown many times.

Nobodies religion is a good enough excuse to violate people's rights. It never will be. That defense has failed repeatedly through our history. And you can keep pitching this crap about religious people never evolving. You and I both know that isn't true.

 

Your comparison is invalid, adultery involves injury to a third person - the spouse being cheated on - homosexuality does not.

 

I've explained the issue multiple times, from an objective point of view, and recognized that both sides have made mistakes and done the wrong thing, and you still refuse or are incapable of understanding. You perfectly demonstrate the problem.

Think of it like this - It does not matter if you understand the religious position. No matter what the law says, no matter how much social pressure the gays try to apply, religious people are numerous, are not going to change their belief, and are not going to go away. Gays are not going to go away, either. Neither side is going to "win". This fight will go on forever, just like the abortion fight. The only livable answer is for each side to just step back and live in their own worlds, its not perfect, each side will have to accept some failure of their rights, but there is no solution that will completely satisfy both sides.

 

Teaching gay morality to my children harms my children, my family, and our relationship with God.

Adultery does not always harm a third person if it is kept secret and the spouse is unaware, or if the marriage is breaking up and the spouse does not care. Even in those cases, adultery does involve breaking the marriage vow, which is wrong, and for religious people the act of adultery itself is a sin whether anyone else is hurt or not.

 

You have not. You have relentlessly accused me of ridiculous things. Now you are telling me I'm incapable of understanding. You have repeatedly posted hyperbolic arguments that have no basis. I explained the facts.

Religious people always change. And they will, and already have in this case. The ones that don't will be viewed as we view the Klan.

The gay rights side has already won. And the people against abortion have already lost.

nope, what will happen is that gay people are going to get married, they have already won in most places. And some people won't like it. They can always leave.

 

No it educates children that there are people who are different to them and that acceptance is the Christian thing to do. Do you not want your children to understand that accepting others who are different from them is, in fact, a Christian virtue? If you are so worried about what is taught perhaps it is your own insecurities that are more relevant than what is taught. If you are secure in what you teach your children then no person is going to be able to change that.

What exactly is "gay morality" anyway?

There are many things described as sins, do you adhere as closely to those as you do to the sin of adultery or is it more a case of picking and choosing which sin is ok and which are not.

I really don't understand this mentality that seems to think that children being taught about homosexuality is some how going to make them homosexual, it may cause children to question the morality of their parents, but in my opinion that is not such a bad thing.
Children should be allowed to think for themselves and not indoctrinated into a closed mind set.

 

Wow, that is so wrong. Christians live in a secular world and deal with people who are different every single day. Christians have to deal with all kinds of people, but are NOT required to accept all people and are certainly not required to accept all actions of people. Christians can be polite and tolerant of different people, that does not mean acceptance. Christians can also expel and avoid people who are too antagonistic, Christians are not required to accept everything that is done to them.

Obviously you have not raised any children.

Yes, you have not raised any children.

 

"You have not raised any children" is not a valid response to the argument that was posed. Please try again.

 

Human rights are sort of more important than your religious belief not being criticized or challenged. Being closeted is a form of psychological torture that I wish upon nobody. Psychological torture is a violation of human rights. Societal acceptance of LGBT people will result in less people being closeted. Teaching children that it's okay to be whoever you are will lead to societal acceptance of LGBT people. From these premises, we can draw the conclusion that teaching children that it's okay to be whoever you are is more important than anyone's religious belief being challenged.

 

Don't accept things. Nobody cares.

 

Romans 14:1-4 - As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

Luke 6:42 - How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,’ when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother's eye.

Proverbs 15:1 - A soft answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.

Matthew 7:1-2 - Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you.

Actually I have raised four children, so obviously you have no idea what you are talking about

See above.

BTW - What is "gay morality" anyway?

 

A religious belief is a human right - its so important its in the 1st Amendment. What some of these pro-gay people want is for religious people to live in the closet, to keep their religion out of public view, to set aside their deeply held convictions and live based on principles which contradict those convictions. Your argument applies to religion just as easily as to homosexuality, you just choose to trump one groups rights and submit them to psychological torture because its not your group.

In other words, its not rights you are interested in, you are simply professing basic prejudice.

 

Good reference. The issue in Rome was literally over whether Christians should follow the old food laws, or could ignore them. Paul says a Christian can ignore them, the food laws are part of the old covenant, but if people want to follow the old food laws then its not a big deal.

Note that following the old food laws is not a sin, abandoning them is not a sin either. Homosexuality is a sin. That makes all the difference.

This has to be read in context as part of Luke 6:39-46. It does not mean to not judge, or that only sinless people can address others sins, and it certainly does not mean to accept other peoples sins. It means before a Christian can deal with other peoples problems, he should have the knowledge and experience gained from addressing his own problems first. And by "addressing his own problems" it does not mean solving them and being sinless and perfect, but being able to recognize the problems, the causes of the problems, and the difficulties in dealing with the problems.

Old Testament but a good point. This actually ties in to Romans 14:1-4 (and beyond), both Proverbs and Romans suggest that when answering people, its better to answer in a way that does not irritate or insult. But everyone is different and sometimes that is not possible. There are many gay people that cannot handle any statement - no matter how soothingly stated - that hints that homosexuality is a sin.

I love it when people try this one. At least you put both of the primary lines and not just the "judge not" sentence. This is not an admonition against judging people, its a demand not to be a hypocrite. If a person is going to judge others by a standard, then they will be judged by the same standard, and should not have a double standard. It has nothing to do with accepting everyone, or tolerating all activities.

It also does not mean that only perfect people can judge others. It just means that whatever standard a Christian applies to others, must be applied to himself as well. It doesn't say that the Christian will pass the standard, but it does say that the Christian must admit the failure.

The idea that children can make up their own minds like they are just "little adults", or that the parent-child bond will always withstand peer pressure is complete idiocy.

And clearly you have not had the experience of having a child come home from school having been taught something contradictory to a parent teaching, wondering who to believe, and worrying that if she tells the teacher the parents answer that she will get in trouble or get a bad grade, or of she tells the teacher the teachers answer that she will get in trouble at home.

That homosexuality is not a sin, and is equal morally and in outcome to the traditional family. That the right to live a gay lifestyle trumps all who oppose that right in any way, that free speech and the freedom of religion and freedom of thought must be sacrificed because they hurt the feelings of gay people. That people who publicly state that homosexuality is not completely normal and equal must be destroyed. That people who reach a certain level of popularity, power, or influence but have not made their views known must be vetted by the gays, and if in their private life have done anything that does not pass the homofascist review, then they must be destroyed.

 

accurate and well stated

 

You can stop being a Christian any time. Nobody has ever killed themselves because of their own bigotry.

 

Don't get tangled up in this. Religion was just a legal defense for somebody that was getting sued.

It really doesn't matter why somebody discriminates against people. The thing that matters is whether or not we are going to tolerate such discrimination. We tolerate most discrimination but there are things we don't tolerate.

 

Strange isn't it that when Christians decide to interpret the bible it is ok to do so, yet when non-Christians do so then they are wrong, and please do show me where all homosexuality is deemed a sin in either the OT or the NT?

Again you are attempting to place things onto me that I have never said so please do quote where I ever say children are "little adults". I'm sorry that you feel your relationship with your children is so weak that it cannot stand being questioned, personally I never had that problem.

and again you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. My children had times where what I (and their mother) had told them was in contrast to what teachers had told them, the difference is that we never taught our children to be afraid to question pre-conceptions, neither did we try to brainwash our children into being mini version of us, we always told them to question what we and their teachers told them hence why one of our children is very, very religious and the other three are not, they questioned and came to their own conclusions.

Which it isn't, as there is no de facto deeming of it being so in the bible.

This is a complete red herring, for one there is absolutely no proof that being homosexual is a "lifestyle choice" and to oppose it is to trample of other peoples rights.

tell me who is curtailing your freedom of speech, do any law enforcement officers knock on your door after reading your comments here, and to even suggest that freedom of thought can be stopped is simply inane. It has little to nothing to do with hurting feelings, it has everything to do with gay people being treated the same as non-gay people.

Plenty of people feel exactly the same about religion, do they have the same right to discriminate against religious people as you do against homosexuals?
Homosexuality is normal, even in nature homosexuality is quite common in numerous species.

What complete and utter hyperbolic BS.

 

That seems to be his modus operandi. It's called a strawman fallacy. And he does it every single time I've spoken with him.

 

Yep, like so many others here .. but I never tire of pointing it out to them.

 

If you keep doing it and don't address anything else he says he'll insist on it several times than he will disappear.

 

Pop over to the abortion forum, we have many, many drive by posters there and even the ones who attempt to maintain the debate end up going in circles, back to points that have already been blown apart.

As to addressing his other points, I will always attempt to do so .. but . .not until he admits to his error.