Moi is right! Canada is behind it all! Every nation in the world has a high profile except Canada. Why is that? It's because they're laying low, trying not to be noticed. But they're really behind everything bad. War, plague, famine, environmentalism - look under any rock and you'll find Canadians writhing and squirming. Do you want your children to grow up amiable, and adding "eh?" to everything they say? Hell no! So blame Canada. Thank you, Moi, for opening our eyes.
precisely. that's why I largely leave the 'correct' blame at the foot of Russia, because the war started between only AH and Serbia, and had Russia never joined in it would have been a footnote in history. Germany wouldn't have gone to war, and American kids wouldn't be taught the name of Archduke Ferdinand.
Russia was obligated by treaty to come to Serbia's aid, so Russia had no choice ...Austrian-Hungary was over aggressive towards Serbia, there was no evidence that Serbia was responsible for the assassination of the heir to the empire...if any one country is to blame it's Austrian/Hungary but more than anything else it the politics of the day, the treaty alliance system combined with rampant imperialism/nationalism....
It was largely a bunch of old men and nutbars who had this warped view that the youth needed a war to teach them the importance of "honor", "bravery" and, most of all, the virtue of "glory" whatever that is. They were a bunch of crazy old coots whose minds were stuck a century in the past. They truly had no idea what a modern war would be like, even though they were supposedly the world's leading authorities on it. Read the maunderings of that idiot bastard von Ludendorff one time.That (*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*) lost the war and then blamed it on the Jews. Shows you what happens when you let a bunch of death-obsessed crazies and senile old men run things, but we keep on doing it, for god only knows what reasons.
But the Germans were in the driver's seat. Without them the war doesn't go beyond some localized violence, they desired to possess an empire, and saw this as an opportunity to acquire one. And it doesn't go as they planned, but it wouldn't have happened at all if they had held back.
Same goes for Russia and France. I'm repeating myself now. AH had its small fight in Serbia, and RUSSIA declared war on AH. Germany already had a defensive alliance with AH, an agreement to defend each other if attacked. Russia didn't have such an official agreement with the Serbs, had Russia not entered there wouldn't have been a war. You're wrong about Germany - the Kaiser's own statements and letters indicate he didn't want war, and that he believed all the imperial powers were aligned against his country, and war would be bad for Germany. Seems odd to blame Germany for defending its ally, but absolve Russia of the initial blame, which is all its.
IF AH had not been assured by the Kaiser that it would stand by them, would they have been so bold? If they hadn't participated in the ramped up militarization of Europe, if they hadn't maneuvered for an empire, the great war could have been averted. If Germany had Allied with France and Britain, rather than AH, things would have been different, sure, everyone was maneuvering for advantage, but the real duty to avoid conflict always belongs to the future loser, as a practical matter.
Not really. AH went to war because the heir to the throne was assassinated, that's not opportunism on AH's part. Germany didn't just decide right then that they'd ally with AH because it was advantageous, they had been allies for a long time, and naturally so (they were of the same 'race' and culture). And the alliance was not the most advantageous possibility for Germany, war with AH would have been the most advantageous. And all you've said about the alliance is moot. If Germany allied with France, Russia still would have gone to war with AH. You've got a complete disconnect on the chain of events
Using the idea that Russia was the cause of WW1. If Germany had not invaded Belgium in response to the Anglo-French declaration of war then the war itself would be contained to the Germanic and Slavic alliances. A stalemate or phoney war could of been initiated on the western side. Btw the relationship between the AH and the Germans was not always harmonious as they had the "Brothers war" of 1866 which was instrumental in curbing Austrian influence and strengthened the German confederation. Also I came across this site which has official correspondence from the respective sides http://www.firstworldwar.com/source/1914.htm If anyone is interested.
Consider the Kaiser's mentality. Determined to realize a Greater Deutchland with the foundations given him by the real hero of modern Germany, Bismark. 1) Getting Germany's fair share of colonies although Germany came in late in the colony grabbing game. 2) A German Navy to match his cousins, the Brits and and support colonies. 3) He had invasion plans drawn up for New York. 4) When America steamed into Manila Bay and sunk the Spanish in a lop sided victory, Germany had a fleet a generation newer at Tientsin than the American fleet now in Manila Bay. Der Kaiser criticized his Navy Brass for not conquering the Philippines for Germany. The Kaiser was a war loving maniac as only a deformed cripple could be. True? The Kaiser's mentality. He promoted the happening of WW1 as he could, even by advising Austria to go for it. He did end up with a nice retirement home in Holland after the Great War. Moi
I voted for 'Germans', but it was overwhelmingly Wilhelm II's fault, not 'Germany' per se. Germany was a federation; though it had parliamentary bodies and the like, the diplomatic and military functions of state resided with the Emperor. Most of the major powers worked to avoid a war; they had nothing to gain by a major war, while Wilhelm II was a little martinet who was jealous of the other powers with empires and wanted a bigger one for himself. His dismissal of Bismarck was the first step on the way to WW I. An excellent book on the subject is Cataclysm: The First World War as Political Tragedy, by David Stephenson. http://www.amazon.com/Cataclysm-First-Political-Tragedy-ebook/dp/B001NCERBM Sorry if any of this is repetitive; I haven't read most of the thread yet. The fuss over Serbia was merely a pretext, following a couple of decades of a long line of Wilhelm's threats, gunboat diplomacy, arms race strategies, and sabre rattling. As an aside, one of the reviewers blasted the book for 'having no new maps, same as the other maps' he'd seen on WW I, apparently not aware that WW I was a fairly static trench warfare situation in the West. I found that funny.
Thanks for the response. I don't blame the Germans because they acted on a legit defense compact. The only other power that entered based on a legitimate defense contract was France. Both the Brite and, the Russians moreso, found phony reasons (the Americans too).
Well, I've been lurking in PF for a couple of years, and just now noticed this history forum buried in the small print. I thought the one downstairs was it. I like reading WW I history and the politics leading up to it better than WW II stuff; it was the more important war, really, at least in Europe. WW II was just WW I Part II.
Consider WWI + WWII as the Second Thirty Years War. 1915-1945. The opponents were basically the same. There really was no "peace" in the middle, rather proxy wars like the Spanish Civil War. Take that look and WWII may seem more interesting as the finale of the Second Thirty Years War. Moi No
That far, I think you're definitely right. In a weird way, if the British didn't conjure up excuse to enter the first world war, or if the French didn't support the allies, or if Russia didn't conjure up phony excuse to go to war with AH, any one of these alone would leave us without a second world war - but there likely would have been a major social revolution. Without a major war or a major social revolution, we would still see an aristocratic system in Germany today, and a racially based aristocratic system in AH overseeing different minorities.
If the Kaiser hadn't approved an invasion of Belgium Britain would have stayed out. Russia didn't conjure up a war, and in fact one of the Dual Monarchs opposed deliberately starting a war over the Serbian question. The Kaiser's own investigator reported back that the Serbian government had nothing to do with the assassination; the Kaiser alone decided to make demands that were certain to be rejected and kicked the war off. They knew of all the alliances, many made precisely because of Wilhelm's belligerence from 1895 on, so the war was deliberate, not an 'accident'. He faked a 'French attack' and launched his offensive in the West. Russia had no reason for a war with AH; they were rebuilding and modernizing their armies for another go at Japan in the East. A mature adult Wilhelm would have left us without a first world war. Many other countries have and have had major social revolutions without kicking off major wars with everybody else. Bismarck was a genius who worked hard for stabilizing Europe, and had succeeded; Wilhelm wrecked it. Germany was already and economic powerhouse and growing larger, thanks to Bismarck's diplomatic genius. Germany had nothing to gain from Wilhelm's egotism, nor from a European war. Wilhelm chose to upset the balance. The monarchies would have died natural deaths on their own; industrialization and the ongoing movement toward democracies and republicanism would ahve forced them to change, as it did everywhere else in the West.
It's not as simple as you're trying to portray. Every major player in WW1 was belligerent in their own right.
Feel free to grant a Reputation Tag for provoking thinking, or merely a "like". Credit goes to the PBS World History course taught by Eugen Weber of UCLA who suggested the idea of the Second Thirty Years War in his series. There was no peace between 1919 and 1939, was there. Russian Civil War with some 10 nations messing around to support the Whites, America in Archangel, the Japanese in Vladivostok. Even Hungarian troops. Japanese empire building. Spanish Civil War, now there was a proxy war. Dr. Weber did a much better job. Moi No Imagine living half Free and Half French
