Yet another hypothetical..."Harriet Tubman Buses"

2030.....and the "pro-life Utopia" has arrived with their national ban on abortion.

A charitable organization, funded by those who disagree with the ban, begin running a chartered bus service....sending HUNDREDS of buses from all across the country, taking poor women (who can't afford their own car, plane, train, or bus fare...unlike the rich and middle class women)..... to pro-choice Canada to obtain abortion services.

Rooms in hotels are provided as well as meals on the bus, and while in Canada. Even the abortion services themselves subsidized or fully funded by the charity.

So...what does the Border Patrol do? Pull the buses over and give every woman onboard (touring buses can hold upto 50-60 people) an ultrasound, looking for the pregnant ones and detain them at the border? If so....on what charge? Nothing illegal has "yet" to be committed. And nothing "illegal" will be done in Canada. And no plants, fruits, or vegetables will be coming back over.

And what if "Harriet Tubman Buslines" "mixes it up a little bit"...loads an entire bus with NON-pregnant women, just to tie up the BP guys at the border crossings. Maybe even starts with the loads of non-pregnant women, just to throw off the Border Patrol guys who'll think they are "somehow screwing up" with the ultrasound machines?

BTW, if you think the MEXICAN border is tough to seal....imagine how many checkpoints on every road leading to Canada from every state from Washington St. to New Hampshire is going to be needed. 100s of thousands of new Border Patrol guys. All armed with the hit-or-miss ability to ultrasound a busload of women.....HOPE they don't get one of the "decoys"....and then figure out some way to legally refuse to allow them to cross?

((Again, this is granting the "full" fantasy...on a lesser, even cheaper, even EASIER hypothetical....imagine if it's just the "Roe overturned and 20-25 states making abortion illegal" scenario.....and "Harriet Tubman Buses" running from Tennesee to New York.....or Texas to Illinois.....or Utah to California?))

 

Whoo! I can tell you one thing Gorn, you have quite the imagination. I highly doubt they'd ever have border crossing patrol checks like this even if abortion were made illegal in this country, but I am sure plenty of women would leave the country to have one.

 

I don't see Roe v. Wade being over-turned anytime soon...given the current state of affairs. Besides, I think you're missing the boat on a pro-life "utopia" as some sort of police state waging war upon womanhood. I believe pro-life is merely asking for the respect and sanctity of human life...to regard the sexual act as something to be respected as a tool of procreaton and not regarded as purely chasing the opiate like orgasm. It's degrading....abortion degrades, not only the woman, but the life growing inside of her. I believe this is an attempt to restore dignity to the human condition....from conception to old age, if we're lucky enough to make it to old age. Between wars, human trafficking, abortions, pornography, violent themed movies, music and video games...we humans are the subject of a lot of degradation...so much so that we often regard our own lives as cheap and expendable...might as well live it up while we can...and can you blame them for feeling that way? Like a commodity? Abortion, and it's societal acceptance, it's need really...is the result of a slow erosion and degradation of the human spirit, from a myriad of factors. Pro-Life's message is the return of simple dignity....afterall even if abortion was legal, if a person dignified the sexual act, dignified their body...dignified themselves...I think even if legal, there would be far fewer. Abortion is merely a by-product of the slow process of degradation of the human soul. The embrace of humanity as material and not mental/spiritual.

 

Well, 1. And I make no claim to great imagination....just SOME imagination, while none of the "pro-lifers" who think they can make abortion illegal again...seem to have any.

2. If they don't enforce the law...it becomes a joke. And the "pro-lifers" get outraged that their attempt to "save the babies" is treated like tearing the tag off a mattress (Remember how those used to say "Do Not Remove Under Penalty Of Law"? ).

They'd either be forced to admit it was "all for show".....or TRY to enforce the law, but the ONLY way they can do it is to create a draconian, authoritarian police-state.....or even INVADE Canada!

3. As far as women leaving the country....naturally. But that means that the real burden goes on poorer women who would have a hard time doing that. Again, another point that becomes difficult for the "pro-lifers" to deny....that under their "dream scenario"....RICH and MIDDLE CLASS women....would still EASILY be able to obtain abortions. Thus turning it into a "class war" where they only go after poor women.

 

Herk...I have ZERO qualms with a honest "pro-lifer" trying the "win over hearts and minds" technique of reducing abortion. Not yelling or screaming. Just trying to convince through simple conversation and ZERO threat of force or the use of the power of Government or law enforcement....not to have an abortion.

Not one bit.

My posts are clearly aimed at those who want a criminalization of abortion, an abortion ban, a national "Abortion Prohbition", and somehow using law enforcement to RESTRICT women from getting an abortion.

You want to try to TALK some young girl into carrying to term...politely and without intimidation......go with my blessings.

You start talking making it a crime.....then you've got a fight on your hand. If at first...with logical argument on why it won't work. (see above).

But don't deny there ARE people who DO want to go the criminalization route....I can point them out to you.

 

Well, it's a poor tactic to approach a scared young woman with a sneer and carrying a sign..."baby killer"..."you're going to hell"
She probably already feels enough shame as it is...I'm guilty of it....not in "real life" but certainly on-line.

It's a mistake.

The act of getting an abortion is the very tip of an iceberg....the ice under the water, what we can't see...
is complex...the solution is therefore to at least begin melting away at the ice under the water...and I think we'll see the tip of that iceberg..the act of abortion....shrink also. The method to melt away the foundational issues which lead to abortion...instill self-respect and personal dignity into personhood....and perhaps that's a rather "utopian" view of things, but you have to start somewhere I suppose. Outlawing it, will have no real effect upon the root causes which lead a person to seek an abortion...it will simply go underground.

 

Quite apart from the debate we have going on in another thread, I would like to say that you are one of the few pro-lifers on this forum who actually uses the space between their ears for more than carrying their hair.
Personally I have no problems at all with any person talking to a woman about abortion and possible trying to convince her of another way .. I would do the same, however if she were adamant that abortion was what she wanted I could never invoke or support a law that removed that choice from her .. however (again) .. I do believe that after viability there should be restrictions on elective abortions, pretty much as the law is now.

I don't, nor will I ever, agree with your opinion that abortion is degrading society, but that debate is for another thread.

 

Well, I'm debating anonymously on a politics based forum. I'm not going to change hearts and minds with text...I have personally, and knowingly mind you...paid for a friend's abortion while we were both college students. He got his g/f pregnant and neither were ready to be parents or to even tell their parents.

I was young and not as strong in my convictions as I am now...I would have acted differently and tried my best to convince both that other options existed...abortion was wrong. So should the opportunity present itself again where I can make a real difference in someone's life, I hope I get that chance at redemption. Otherwise I am just another accomplice to what I perceive as moral wrong....meanwhile I just sit here and vent, and I doubt it's going to make a real difference. My goal is not to end abortion...my goal is to influence...just one person...just one...to choose another path. To carry the child to term, maybe find parents who will raise and love the child as their own. At least I will have achieved some level of a neutral redemption to counter the one life I've already been party to in ending.

 

I suppose this whole argument centers on whether or not the women who are actually getting these abortions will be punished.

But even if it is not, making abortion illegal would still deter most of these abortions. Remember, most women get abortions for convenience, and travelling to Canada is not very convenient.

These "Harriet Tubman Buses" you are talking about is really child trafficking.

 

Far more "convenient" than enforced pregnancy, you under estimate women (all the time)

I always suspected you had a flare for the dramatic, but this really takes the biscuit.

 

and the problem that is so evident on these pages is the majority of pro-lifers can't even comprehend that the majority of pro-choicers and/or pro-gradualists would try to do the same. There is a huge difference between trying to convince someone there are other options and taking away some options by law, I just wish some pro-lifers could see that.

 

It's one thing to help a person come to a decision that's well-considered, it's quite another to insert yourself into another person's life unasked as clinic protesters do. To assume you know what the right decision is for everyone, meaning abortion is always the wrong choice... that is arrogant, self-righteous, rude, and just vile.

 

And yet....that's what happens outside of clinics by "pro-lifer" protestors.

Apparently they're not smart enough to figure out what you have figured out.

 

Anders.....1. If a woman wants an abortion, it's no more "convenient" to schedule an appointment at a clinic, where some screaming idiots will be outisde calling her a "baby killer"....than taking a bus ride to Canada paid for by a pro-choice charity.

2. You haven't answered my question. How do you stop them from going to Canada?

 

Gorn Captain said

Wonderful...more babies allowed to live a great idea.

Wait wait....your wrong. Pro-aborts don't do charitable things do they?...This would be highly unlikely. Who is going to pay for the bus service? This would mean the funds would have to come from the pro-aborts....and by 2030...we are a socialist nation...no rich to help fund abortion like they do now. You might have to walk them across the border. I can see why you want to target poor women....Sanger did that when she wanted segregation and wanted to eliminate that class of people.

Where will this money come from? Remember socialism....no such charity. Wow sounds like they are going on a spa weekend...how fun. Women might get knocked up just to be able to go on a vacation. LOL

You mean your organization is dumb enough to get caught? I'll tell you what food will come back over......the "nuts". LMAO The fruits and nuts.

The fact is....the way it would be would be more like this.

Underground abortion mill monitored by rabid abortionists and their supporters. Abortion on demand for any reason. Women brought to the facility possibly getting paid to abort. Minority and poor women... The facility can kill, can sell body parts...and get rid of the woman that die from a botched abortion with no one knowing. This would be the control center...they can control what babies get to live...kill the scourge of society..similar to what Hitler did..but underground out of sight.

Yes that would be cool...this would detract from the real killing that would be going on underground in the pro-abort well of death. People who like to kill innocent people will always find a way. Hitler did, Pol Pot, Sadam Hussein and yes...the pro-abort position...will find a way.

Lets name it.....What comes to mind that reminds me of slaughter???????

Remember the Qin Dynasty? The population went from 20 million to 10 million in less than 8 years. KILL Dynasty? PROAB Dynasty? Yes I like the second one. That could be the name of the positions machine. Heck with Tubman...go for the jugular...get it done....fast, clean and efficient. And while Hitler marched them into the ovens...the movement could march them underground.

As I said....underground is the way to go...then the PROAB Dynasty can really carry out what the goal of the pro-abortion movement is all about. Killing on demand any time any reason...any way...to solve societal problems and to make that master race of people. Eugenics baby...that was what Sanger was all about. And teamed with what Hitler did...you could easily jump to the top of the list of the organization or entities that killed the most people on earth.

As Martha Stewart says...."and that would be a good thing."

Right?

Kill em quick...easy and don't leave a trace....that is what the pro-abortion movement is all about.

 

And man oh man...ya gotta kill the poor babies....the minorities. Sangers goal.

She targeted the poor...for all the most obvious reasons.

 

I do this all the time. And we simply are there....to give information. NO ONE IS FORCED TO TALK TO US OR TO TAKE ANYTHING.... AND WE STAY SO FAR BACK AS NOT TO EVEN COME IN CONTACT WITH ANYONE. We have the right to protest...do we not?

Other organizations protest? The gays certainly protest? Women protest? The NEA...the unions can protest..so don't give me the crap that they should be afforded rights that we as a group should not get.

Why can't pro-lifers protest?

What is vile..is the pro-abort position...killing children even viable ones...all in the name of choice. That sums up the position and that is vile.

 

Why are we idiots?

Would you also say that to any organization that protests? Don't we have the right as citizens to protest?

Here are examples of protests. Anti-war....gays.....teachers.....political.....trade policies.....animal activists.....civil rights....unions.....

Are all these protesters idiots? I will die defending someones right to protest. Pro-aborts have a right to protest. That is the big difference however between those who are pro-abortion and pro-life. You don't defend my right to disagree. And while I find the KKK a vile organization...I would defend their right to be heard. I believe in the free exercise of free speech and the protest is within the laws of the country. Your position is not so open minded.

http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images?_adv_prop=image&fr=yfp-t-900&va=examples+of+protests

 

You should write a book, it would do well in the fantasy section what with your ability to lie, you'd make a mint.

 

Well that is a pile of horse crap .. Where has anyone stopped you from voicing your opinion, where has anyone stopped you from protesting, all total BS and more lies.
The problem you have is that you just don't disagree, you proclaim to have insight into what other people think and believe .. placing your assumptions onto others, and to cap all that you want to re-write the constitution to reflect YOUR opinion of what is right .. there is another word for someone like that, can you guess what it is?

 

Notice the CONTRADICTION, that churchmouse has to create....in her total DODGE of the questions...she's done it before-

Apparently despite my hypothetical being set in a RIGHTwing Utopia of abortion being banned.....somehow it'll be a "socialist state"?!?!? So a lot of "pro-life socialists" will have taken over, churchmouse?!?!?

Naturally, once she gets done with that....she has ZERO answers, except her usual rants about "pro-aborts" and "Pol Pot". But not one cogent, logical answer to how in her "dream world" of a national ban on abortion....how she would enforce it at the Canadian border.

She can't....neither will her other cohorts who think it "can be done, maybe not 100% but a LOT!".

It's not simply the fact they can't accept that their little fantasy isn't going to come true?.....they also believe that nobody will RESIST it coming true or hypothetically resist it if it did.

And of course have never even CONSIDERED that possibility in their little dream-spinning, Echo Chamber discussions over at "lifesitenews" or whatever. Nobody ever raises such questions....so not even an attempt at answering them has ever been tried.

They just tell themselves "We'll just do it is all. And most abortions won't happen because...uh...it'll be 'inconvenient'....or we can subpeona pharmacy records from Toronto....or who cares if it won't actually work that well, it's about saving the babies!!!!!"

 

Did I say they wouldn't be allowed to protest? Or just refute Anders contention that it's not "inconvenient" to have to deal with such protestors screaming at you?

Besides....protesting doesn't seem to be "enough" for you guys. That's why we get Eric Rudolphs and Scott Roeders.

 

Wow...i was just following the lines of Gorn....who started the thread to begin with. LOL

And what specifically am I lying about? I can't make observations...cause thats all Gorn did his first post.

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Wow...i was just following the lines of Gorn....who started the thread to begin with. LOL

And what specifically am I lying about? I can't make observations...cause thats all Gorn did his first post.

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No I came back with a clever counter to the ridiculousness of your post. You don't like it when your crossed though do you?

 

The pro-choice community position whines like a baby....
The fact is a pot shot was made about ABORTION PROTESTERS. And I would bet my life....that the majority of protesters are the most quiet and well mannered people who have ever protested. Sure you will show a few videos where a few people are yelling....but if you knew what you were talking about and have actually been to protests you would know that we are a quiet bunch.

You bring up two men who killed abortionists.

Could you do me a favor and compare the number of abortionists killed since 1973...to the number of abortions done at clinics. How many abortionists have been killed by pro-lifers?

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And killing isn't enough for the pro-aborts...there always has to be something more. Kill more...and more...the more the better.

 

Nope, you wrote a fantasy rant, GC wrote about a hypothetical pro-life utopia.

Well as you lied in other topics, which I proved, why should anyone think you would do any different in another topic.
Observations as based on facts not fantasies, or are you admitting that the pro-life utopia is a fantasy?

What is clever about trying to use a socialist framework against a theocratic situation .. hint, in a theocratic framework you wouldn't have socialist items such as welfare and in a socialist framework abortion wouldn't be illegal. apples to oranges springs to mind.