Where are the good Christians?

Listen, America was an established nation for the benefit of everybody, regardless of race or religion. Christ tells us to tolerate everything, you have a problem with that pick another religion. Your just one more problem that makes Jesus seem like a lunatic, not like the Son Of God. You want to rule a country, try a coup.

 

I gots to call BS on this post. Pure BS.
RC won't even give the employees access to BC.

 

For many year I have researched and studied Islam while pursuing a degree in theology, why?

Additionally, I am well aware of what Jesus taught. As I stated earlier, I don't hate Muslims. They are to be prayed for and shown tolerance. What I will not accept is Islam's false teachings, and the bastardization of Hebrew & Christian scripture to serve a political agenda, which hides itself behind a banner of a monotheistic religious ideology. Paganism was no longer the in thing. There were two monotheistic religions which far outnumbered the Arab pagans. What would be a logical choice when faced with an uncomfortable political situation?

Please recall Muslims still celebrate Ramadan e.g. pre-Islamic Arab pagan rituals with the same features and characteristics as the Islamic Ramadan.

http://religionresearchinstitute.org/ramadan/roots.htm

Did Jesus not address and attempt to correct the scribes and Pharisees? Jesus' harsh words were not well received by the scribes & Pharisees. Rinse, repeat while applying the same principles toward Islam. Are we not called by Christian vocation to do the same as Jesus? Do you think the scribes & Pharisees were not angered to the point whereby they called for Jesus' death? So what exactly have you not understood by Jesus' perfect example?

The whitewashed friendly version of the Qur'an presented to the west by two British Muslim scholars is a deception. The original copy of the Qur'an can never be translated. The Qur'an must remain unabridged and in its original Arabic text. Further, a translation is only a mere attempt to give the reader a suggestion of the meaning of the words contained in the original copy of the Qur'an.

A little history lesson.

Qur’an means to recite.

When Mohammad died in 632 CE, the Qur’an had not been recorded, and collected into a book. Instead, Muslims memorized large portions of the Qur'an. This was especially true of people who personally knew Mohammad. It's possible that some of the Qur'anic were recorded on bones, rocks, or hides before Mohammad died. Regardless, Muslims decided that they needed to have the Qur’an collected into a book. So the original Qur’an of 634 AD was created during the political reign of Abu Bakr. He ordered that the Qur’an could only include words that were vouched from the testimony of two men. The earliest version of the Qur'an would have been fresh in the minds of Mohammad's followers in 634 AD.

Mind you, the original Qur'an (Haffsah codex version) was not well received throughout all Arab countries because Muslims preferred their own local versions. Issues began to occur with the Qur’an during the reign of the third political leader of Islam, Uthman. As the Islamic faith spread with each military conquest, the Islamic soldiers were reading different versions of the Qur’an.

The original Qur’an came to be known as the Hafsah codex. Hafsah was one of Mohammad's many wives. Hafsah fought to preserve Mohammed's original manuscript until her death. Uthman requested the codex from Hafsah. The manuscript was later returned to her. Because of the issue of the Qur'an not being well received, all other versions of the Qur'an were ordered to be destroyed. The Hafsah codex was one of the last Qur’ans to be willingly destroyed by Muslims. Hence, Mohammed's most important original manuscript of the Qur’an, which Hafsah protected with her life, was burned in its entirety by Muslim leaders in 667 AD.

Please refer to Al-Tamhid 2, 247 There were four versions of the Qur'an before they were destroyed by Islamic political leaders.

You may also enjoy the following link as well:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/67582468/The-Preamble-to-Faith-v1-5-English-translation-of-Tamhīd-e-Īmān

Most casual readers of the friendly translated version of the Qur'an are not aware of the abrogation of translated text apart from the only copy of the Qur'an. Fortunately, I had a former Islamic scholar, now professor whom converted to Christianity, and was able to speak the truth without fear of reprisal.

Physician please heal thyself before preaching to the choir.

 

Please feel free to self-educate

The Crusades were expeditions undertaken, in fulfillment of a solemn vow, to deliver the Holy Places from Mohammedan tyranny.

The origin of the word may be traced to the cross made of cloth and worn as a badge on the outer garment of those who took part in these enterprises. Medieval writers use the terms crux (pro cruce transmarina, Charter of 1284, cited by Du Cange s.v. crux), croisement (Joinville), croiserie (Monstrelet), etc. Since the Middle Ages the meaning of the word crusade has been extended to include all wars undertaken in pursuance of a vow, and directed against infidels, i.e. against Mohammedans, pagans, heretics, or those under the ban of excommunication. The wars waged by the Spaniards against the Moors constituted a continual crusade from the eleventh to the sixteenth century; in the north of Europe crusades were organized against the Prussians and Lithuanians; the extermination of the Albigensian heresy was due to a crusade, and, in the thirteenth century the popes preached crusades against John Lackland and Frederick II. But modern literature has abused the word by applying it to all wars of a religious character, as, for instance, the expedition of Heraclius against the Persians in the seventh century and the conquest of Saxony by Charlemagne.

The idea of the crusade corresponds to a political conception which was realized in Christendom only from the eleventh to the fifteenth century; this supposes a union of all peoples and sovereigns under the direction of the popes. All crusades were announced by preaching. After pronouncing a solemn vow, each warrior received a cross from the hands of the pope or his legates, and was thenceforth considered a soldier of the Church. Crusaders were also granted indulgences and temporal privileges, such as exemption from civil jurisdiction, inviolability of persons or lands, etc. Of all these wars undertaken in the name of Christendom, the most important were the Eastern Crusades, which are the only ones treated in this article...

continues

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04543c.htm

The difference is the Crusades ended many centuries ago whereas Islam's open-ended war with infidels will continue until Jesus' second coming. The good news is Christianity will have survived the radical Islamification of the world.

 

Jesus' harsh words were directed at the words of unfaithful, unholy men. It had nothing to do with conversion. Take for example the tax collectors Jesus dined with, who surely were full of sin. Yet did he treat these men with harsh words? No. And as a result they resulted in multitudes of followers. Lets also look onto the Greek pagans of the day, Jesus did not treat them harshly. He did not belittle them, or engage them with a hurtful tongue. Remember the words of wisdom of God, who said that a skilled tongue is used to heal. While a unskilled tongue only does harm. Also you say you have studied Islam, notice then that the Muslims believe that the Books Of Religion are to be respected and are true. Muslims believe the Quran was made, is because the other books were corrupted. I respect Muslims just like i respect people of all religions and races, it is the proper thing to do and Jesus taught it.

 

The problem isn't bad people. The problem is bad ideology.

Until Muslims work in unity toward correcting their bad ideology and recognize that their corrupted rewrite of Holy Scriptures were to include a false prophet while rejecting Jesus' divinity, I will continue to stand my ground.

God bless your endeavors while searching for the good life. I pray you find it.

 

All the GOOD Christians????

They're ALL around you.........surrounding you like Angels of light. JUST OPEN YOUR EYES and see them! A fire needs to be lit inside their souls once again, bringing the GOOD Christians back to life.

 

Their ideology represent alot of the same as ours. They dont believe i Jesus, but neither do the Jews. Sure, no one said you couldnt stand your ground, however if you do it in a way that disrespects and discriminates, your not doing what Jesus asked us to do. Thats all im saying. They also accually believe that the books of the new testaments were accually written by God. Also what do you mean in "God bless your endeavors while searching for the good life. I pray you find it"? I'm a devout Christian. I dare you to try to refute that i am.

 

No, no, no!! Apparently you don't know you history. A soccer match between the Christians and Muslims led to the Crusades. You might say it was case of bad sportsmanship.

 

First of all, CNN thinks all Christians are red necks who believe that the earth is only 6000 years old and Obama is the anti-Christ. (Having one out of two correct ain't bad)

Secondly, I don't get to hyped up about those who proport to represent Christ. Just ask yourself if Christ would be doing "X". If not, then they don't represent him.

 

As an atheist I have asked the question as to where the good people of any religion were. Not because I don't think they exist, I know they do, there are many in my life. But the question isn't meant to suggest there are no good people in whatever faith we choose to discuss. The point is why aren't they defending their religion from those who misuse it? Publically not privately to be specific.

Part of the reason I think is because religion is subjective to the individual. Perhaps (for instance) Christians are afraid it will become a slippery slope whereas questioning the way people view the word of God could infringe upon their own perception of scripture. Now you may say that there is only one view but I haven't met very many Christians who believe the exact same things and agree on everything when it comes to scripture.

Now the reason I am addressing your post is that you have brought up ideology and suggested that there are good and bad ideologies yet I wonder if you could tell me the difference.

Any ideology that does not include the same rights, liberties and freedoms for all people and allows all people to live as they wish as long as they are non-violent is a bad ideology to someone. That is the problem with ideology.

Biases are always present in ideology as the individual conceiving it cannot possibly encompass the needs of those whose own beliefs are unknown from an emotional perspective or contradictory to theirs.

The ideology of religion is the reason you are pitted against other religions and even your own.

 

I am referring to an ideology of a political system as in the example of Islam, which in itself is a stagnant political system. People who are forced to live under such a system really have no choice other than to move elsewhere. Sit back and watch what happens in Egypt. People elected an Islamic fundamentalist to power. People of various religions who have relatively lived in harmony will either be forced to flee Egypt or be killed.

Regarding religion, people are entitled to their own EDUCATED opinions. I say educated because most people don't bother doing the research before lodging accusations.

Religion and politics will always remain subjects of heated debate simply because people are used to pointing fingers.

 

Referring to my prior post, the Pharisees were a politico-religious faction of Judaism. Very similar to Islam.

Fast forward

Incorrect. Islamic ideology does not represent a lot of our Christian beliefs. Mohammed's ideology is based upon the pre-Islamic need for identity, and thus he and his followers plagiarized Holy Scripture to fit their political agenda. I think it's rather narcissistic of Mohammed to insert himself into Jesus' role as fulfillment of the OT's prophesy.

Did Jesus not say, (Matthew 26:52 NJB) "Put your sword back, for all who draw the sword will die by the sword." Did Jesus not heal the slave of priest whose ear was cut off by a follower, when he was ordered to arrest Jesus? Were Christians persecuted for their beliefs during the Roman empire era. Did Christians resist persecution by drawn swords? A simple denial of renouncing Jesus & Christianity would have spared their lives.

Now let's contrast: Was Mohammed not a warrior of conquering nations who lived by the sword? Toss in the Umayyad dynasty & Ottoman empire. Were Hebrews, Christians, Protestants spared? What is happening in the ME in places where people of various faiths live relatively in harmony, and whose future now appears very dim with Islamic fundamentalists rising to power?

Qur'an Sira 9:1-7 (Pickthall translation closest to Arabic)

1 Freedom from obligation (is proclaimed) from Allah and His messenger toward those of the idolaters with whom ye made a treaty. 2 Travel freely in the land four months, and know that ye cannot escape Allah and that Allah will confound the disbelievers (in His Guidance). 3 And a proclamation from Allah and His messenger to all men on the day of the Greater Pilgrimage that Allah is free from obligation to the idolaters, and (so is) His messenger. So, if ye repent, it will be better for you; but if ye are averse, then know that ye cannot escape Allah. Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to those who disbelieve, 4 Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfill their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him). 5 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. 6 And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him so that he may hear the Word of Allah, and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not. 7 How can there be a treaty with Allah and with His messenger for the idolaters save those with whom ye made a treaty at the Inviolable Place of Worship? So long as they are true to you, be true to them. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty. 8 How (can there be any treaty for the others) when, if they have the upper hand of you, they regard not pact nor honour in respect of you? They satisfy you with their mouths the while their hearts refuse. And most of them are wrongdoers.

There is only a relitively minute faction of moderate Muslims who do not adhere to the literal translation of 9: 5.

I could continue for the next five years with contradiction after contradiction, which clearly demonstrates the political agenda of Islam as opposed to Christian principles. However, you choose to view Islam through rose colored glasses. So I'd only be wasting our time.

Your propensity to believe Islam is a warm and fuzzy offshoot of Christianity is deeply flawed. Read the fatwas, as well as the Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi'i, and Hanbali traditions of law. Perhaps then you'll see an entirely different picture or you can just choose to remain naive.

The truth must be told. Whether or not you choose to accept it is entirely up to you. Unfortunately, truth cannot be whitewashed to spare feelings. The truth is based on facts & evidence.

"What is the good life" was a question posed by my first Religious Moral Principles & Ethics professor. Guidelines for the good life are to be found in the Judeo-Christian tradition, the moral teaching of authority in the Church, and natural law of man's understanding of the divine law. There is no one particular answer as we all choose different paths. There are certain adherence that bind us but your path is not the same as mine. You are on your own journey. Hence, my prayer for you comes directly from my heart. So try not to be too offended.

 

I am a Christian. I do not judge you by your faith or lack of it. I do not believe in hell. I do not believe an "All-Loving God" is such a sadistic SOB that he would keep beings alive forever, for the sake of torturing them. Even the Nazi's eventually gave the mercy of death.
I don't believe that gays, Muslims or atheists have anything to worry about from God.
If I can accept them for who they are, then either I am more understanding and forgiving than God, or a lot of people have simply misinterpreted some things.
All Christians do the same thing:
They takes a small part of the Bible literally.
They throw out or rationalize ignoring the parts they don't like or that are inconvenient.
They interpret the rest of have someone else interpret the rest for them.
Unfortunately, most also do one other thing: They argue over who is right about how they do all of the above.
At least they don't kill and torture people with differing beliefs anymore. At least not most of them.

I've seen many Christians who never spend time volunterring and never donate money.
I've seen many atheists who volunteer and donate.
Guess which I have more respect for?

 

Listen, you can view Islam any way you wish for. However Jesus tells us to tolerate and respect other peoples. Therefore it would be reasonible to assume that Jesus would want you and I to treat Muslims with the upmost respect. And as to your live by the sword reasoning, was not the crusades encouraged by the Pope? How can you assualt the Islamic code, if you dont assualt the Old testament as well?

 

Even without the so-called hijacking, the message is to love your neighbor and love Jesus, OR SUFFER FOR ETERNITY IN FIERY TORMENT!

There is no love in it.

 

Whar? I've never seen Jesus' message as particularly unifying.

 

In Abu Ghraib - you know, Bush's rape rooms:




http://introtosociology.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/abu-ghraib.jpg

http://edge.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/picture/1486883/81135613.jpg

 

How so?

 

An interesting article by Dean. Please, read the article. Because it describes some members on here quite well, I must say.[/QUOTE]

A very few christian churches focus on the negative scriptures, but they are loud and their extremism attracts the media.

However, within every christian group there are members who hold on to the anti-gay scriptures. Also many believe that non-christians (anyone who does not believe the divinity of Christ, his virgin birth and bodily resurrection) will spend eternity in hell. They see convincing others to be a moral duty and often lose sight of Christ in their methods.

Church groups which try to eliminate the negative thinking of some of their members face the danger of being split apart by the strife this causes. Many times the conservative or literalist thinkers of any given church are also its oldest and most affluent members. The clergy know who pays their salary and know how far they can push new age tolerant views.

Good Christians are everywhere. I have met an overwhelming number of hard core fundamentalist who believe in preaching their version of faith without using threats or hatred. But if asked point blank if they agree with most of the points the hate mongers make they would have to say yes, it is only the method of teaching that they disagree with.

Many christians have a more open minded spirituality that borders on mysticism, but to operate within the churches they attend they often suppress their views.

Finally, christian churches who are completely open minded and non-confrontational put most news people to sleep, and are disregarded completely by the dominant christian hierarchy.

 

A very few christian churches focus on the negative scriptures, but they are loud and their extremism attracts the media.

However, within every christian group there are members who hold on to the anti-gay scriptures. Also many believe that non-christians (anyone who does not believe the divinity of Christ, his virgin birth and bodily resurrection) will spend eternity in hell. They see convincing others to be a moral duty and often lose sight of Christ in their methods.

Church groups which try to eliminate the negative thinking of some of their members face the danger of being split apart by the strife this causes. Many times the conservative or literalist thinkers of any given church are also its oldest and most affluent members. The clergy know who pays their salary and know how far they can push new age tolerant views.

Good Christians are everywhere. I have met an overwhelming number of hard core fundamentalist who believe in preaching their version of faith without using threats or hatred. But if asked point blank if they agree with most of the points the hate mongers make they would have to say yes, it is only the method of teaching that they disagree with.

Many christians have a more open minded spirituality that borders on mysticism, but to operate within the churches they attend they often suppress their views.

Finally, christian churches who are completely open minded and non-confrontational put most news people to sleep, and are disregarded completely by the dominant christian hierarchy.[/QUOTE]

IMO churches should mirror the tone and things that Paul preached about. As he said in Philippians 3:17 (CEB) = Brothers and sisters, become imitators of me and watch those who live this way—you can use us as models.

Therefore the things that Paul preached against modern preachers should also preach against. And the things that Paul said were good should also be repeated. After all, he's the one who wrote the story.

 

My mind is blown from this thread.

Nobody is good. We are all helplessly evil down to our core. No amount of smiles, good deeds or deceitful methods will conceal your wicked hearts.

 

AMEN Brother.
Now lets all join hands and sing Kumbya!!

 

Simply disturbing.

 

Amusing.

No one has really addressed the OP.

Red Herring anyone?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring