I don't play the endless game of stupidity like some others. You discuss or you don't. Clearly you have decided you don't. Very well....
This seems to be the common complaint when one catches Bruce with his 'spiritual pants down!' Not only will he not admit to his error, but neither will he pull his pants up either...
Yeah, I took a look at Faust on Wiki this morning...didnt seem to apply to your conver--no ref to Job in his deal with the Devil. And "Job" (when I 1st read it thought it was 'Jahb' as in where one goes to work.. ) was too deep for kids and I read later as an adult. It has to be studied with the 'right' perspective to glean the spiritual meanings from it. Btw, how did your Lenten 'coffee fast' go? And an early "Happy Resurrection" to you...
Also, if you take Bruce's perspective that God was playing with or enjoying torturing Job, then I guess He must have really had a 'knee slapper' when His Son was being whipped & crucified, huh?! As in Isaiah 53:10 10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. Those words could also be taken wrong if one ignores the desired outcome of the sacrifice of His Son!
Yeah...The Faustian legend is old--I think he was referring to Goethe's, or maybe Marlowe's, but neither really fits because they are HUMAN deals with the devil, and not really about righteousness, rather regret and repentance--or as in Marlowe's stubborn refusal to repent. Thanks. I did it, but I missed coffee more than I thought I would. I started off great, but started longing for the stuff about half way through. I'm looking forward to a nice, hot, black cup o' Joe tomorrow morning. You also have a very Blessed Easter!
If that fairy tale called the Bible was REALLY inspired by god then it would make way more sense than it does. But it doesn't....so it's not.
Christians (and most other religious people too) are mindless, since their book says to HATE (kill gays, etc.), they hate. Mindless immoral robots. Christians are simply so morally inferior to modern Secular Humanists that when presented with the idea of "why don't you just print a new version of your bible that doesn't bring forward the part that says to kill gays?" they are too intellectually cowardly to do that simple thing. Fanaticism over morality. Religion.....infecting the mind for too many years. Let's end it.
What part of "Christianity/Jesus is simply immoral" don't you people get!? Just listen to yourselves: ACCEPTING an archaic fairy tale that ACCEPTS SLAVERY, ACCEPTS BEATING SLAVES, ACCEPTS KILLING GAYS, teaches that talking donkeys are real, teaches that unicorns are real, teaches that dragons are real, approves of women being worth HALF a man. Do you Christians have any common sense and morality? Clearly religions are going to fall, and modern Secular Humanism will rise. It's inevitable.
Not my point at all. We actually are in total agreement as to the positive understanding of the Book of Job. My only point is that if it is looked at as history, as actual events that transpired, it is horrific. My comments, then, are addressed to the inerrantists, those that find the bible to be the recorded perfect history of the faith, not you and Felicity who do bring some discernment to the text. That is why I think we are much closer than you think we are. You understand that the bible can not be read simply as recorded history, but rather stories that are trying to teach. That is why you can embrace your gay brothers and sisters and leave the judgmental attitude to others. You read between the lines. I really don't want to fight with you, because I think we are much closer than our harshness indicates. Peace brother.
You were 'complaining' to the wrong ppl---both Fel & I acknowledged a 'story' or 'legend' (per Fel), and many Biblical scholars consider it in the area of 'poetry,' But if you read the last part in 'blue' of my post below, there may have been a man named Job who was seen as righteous but suffered for no known reason--this 'story'was an attempt to explain why! But agreed, we've beaten this subject to death, and let better feelings pervade as going forth...
Btw, Bruce, to show you how I've 'shaken off' some of the teachings of men on Job, having attended many inter/non-denominational churches over the years including 'faith' churches, the scripture: Job 3:20-26 (Ampl) 20 Why is light [of life] given to him who is in misery, and life to the bitter in soul, 21 Who long and wait for death, but it comes not, and dig for it more than for hidden treasures, 22 Who rejoice exceedingly and are elated when they find the grave? 23 [Why is the light of day given] to a man whose way is hidden, and whom God has hedged in? 24 For my sighing comes before my food, and my groanings are poured out like water. 25 For the thing which I greatly fear comes upon me, and that of which I am afraid befalls me. [some xlations say "what I have feared most"\ 26 I was not or am not at ease, nor had I or have I rest, nor was I or am I quiet, yet trouble came and still comes [upon me]. Is used by the 'faith churches' to say that Job 'opened up' to the tribulations thru his 'fear', a ***** in his armor as it were. But in context, he was already in tribulations and was 'fearing' the coming of more of them!! And so I never could fully buy in to it...
Not being a jerk here, but fear is a fundamental to the faith. If you look up "fear of the Lord" or "fear of God" in a searchable concordance you will be overwhelmed with biblical references that fear is the beginning of wisdom, and other such conclusions. Fear is the proper posture for a devoted follower of God, according to scripture.
Well, fear is seen in 2 different ways: 'fear of the Lord' is seen as reverence & respect. But fear beyond that is seen as the opposite of faith, or some say 'negative faith.' Producing negative results. "Perfect love casts out fear." in the NT. Usually it's pretty much the King James that uses 'fear' for reverence....i.e. one cannot operate in fear & faith at the same instant as a believer in the words of Christ!
I generally agree with your post, but if you do the search using the NIV or the NRSV I think it will shock you how often it is used in the NT.
Probably.... But I'm a cover-to-cover student of the Bible and dont place all my stock in a couple of areas of possible errancy or discrepancy. I look at the whole of the msgs and 'settle in my mind' their spiritual significances. One of the things I try to do is keep all in perspective. Try to imagine reading the Bible for the 1st time w/o influence by men..just on your own! Well, I did that at one point as an adult using an easy to read 'Living Bible,' as the King James for me was a language barrier. And then I weighed what I had read and understood with what was being taught from pulpits. Some stuff was revelation, but other didnt jive with what my spirit was understanding. The problem becomes who is right?! I, having no axes to grind or particular biases, seek the truths within the scriptures, (the spiritual contained nuggets within) and have to by faith believe that it is the Holy Spirit who illuminates them to my spirit (the "Aha" feeling!). And so, I dont throw the baby out with the bath water on many areas of conflict, but try to harmonize or if not, put on a 'shelf' for later considerations. For those who find an error or contradiction in a single scripture or event, and throw the baby out with the bath water, they are taking the cheap way out as condemning the whole...I have little respect for such ppl! One has to work at and study the scriptures to dig out those spiritual nuggets, instead of labeling the whole as being w/o 'any' spiritual significance or having worth/merit of any of the msgs. Using the NT "if 2 or 3 [or more] agree as touching something...(i.e. the witness' principle) " I look for multiple scriptures whenever possible to bolster my reasoning..
We are in complete accord here. My editorials are always directed at those that don't have the courage to do what you do with scripture. To read it "as is" and not apply our centuries of knowledge and experience to the task of understanding scripture is a fool's errand, and so those who wish to think the earth is 6000 years old, and dinosaurs were on a literal ark, and so forth, are the ones that get my attention. You are not one of these. I find truth where I find it, whether it be in scripture or a science text. I must use all the tools available to me to build a faith I can trust in. I do not condemn the whole of scripture. It is still my touchstone, but it requires careful parsing not to be misled into a life filled with judgment and superiority, as you have acknowledged before when discussing the gay issue. Great spiritual truths are found in many religious texts. I grew up with Christ, and so understand that spiritual tradition more than most. I was ordained and preached it, but left that as I could no longer support some of the more silly parts that people devotedly cling to. But the Baby is still safe.
I like that--"the baby is still safe" Yes, for truth to prevail, then the scripture must line up with tried & proven science, not necessarily with speculative science tho. And so the 'man of God' must be open to ALL truth, even tho it may violate the 'religious doctrines' of the day, If one believes in 'one truth' then he shud be open to the all that either bolster or attempt to disprove it. The enigma for such a believer is to 'preach' the truth w/o any guile but as to influence those who are ignorant of the truth. Religion puts men in bondage to other men's ideas, who desire to put God in 'their box.' That is why I mentioned to you as one who has separated himself going into what I see are the initial birth pangs of the end times, you may very well be one of those of that church 'dispensation' (sorry, as that term does offends some ppl) period...but as you have been struggling with, in how do YOU get there with what YOU have discerned with the church of today?!
Perhaps the church of today is the problem. A truly great read is "The Irresistible Revolution" by Shane Claiborne. I think he has it pretty darn near right (and shames me in the process).
BWahahahahaha....apparently you don't know what an allegory is. How can you have a metaphor of a "fable?" Job is an allegory (possibly)...Faust is an allegory (possibly); but one cannot be an allegory of the other. LOL! Now your just making (*)(*)(*)(*) up. Quit while you're ahead and don't make yourself look foolish. You haven't read any of the Faust stories, have you? Nope--I don't believe so since if you had you would know how stupid this suggestion is. LOL!!!
I also struggle with today's modern churches, but not as you in 'attacking them,' but attempt thru 'edification' and just 'throwing it out there' trying to influence ppl's "religious" thinking. Btw, some RCC's may not see my intentions that way, but my intentions are noble in questioning practices, doctrine, etc. As in "setting the captives of men's doctrines" FREE! Believe it or not, I have a heart for Catholics! Having 'been there/done that." [hope Fel and Anob still 'love' me!] But man shud not have to rely upon another man for his salvation status, unless that man is Jesus Christ! But I have many of the same 'complaints' with what are called 'protestant' churches.
Of course they can. Aesop's fables have continuously been remade as allegories. Silly post. - - - Updated - - - Of course they can. Aesop's fables have continuously been remade as allegories. Silly post.
They are "ALLUDED" to by other works, but they are not "remade as ALLEGORIES." Look up the terms for heaven's sake. (Trust me..I do this stuff for a living...)
