Do some people really believe that they have a "right to a job"?

So capitalists save people from starving.

 

The world over. So much food in the capitalist societies,the freest of which have no significant starvation, that we can send some over to the socialist states that are starving despite an agricultural based economy.

 

What on earth are you talking about? You asked what creates value, not what else it can do. The value of any commodity is the socially necessary labour time taken to create it, of which the capitalist steals a large proportion to pay for brainwashing, people to protect his swag, people to steal for him abroad and so on. We pay for a very great deal that is not to our advantage except to prove we are mugs.

 

Don't you begin to understand economics? If so, I can't help you. Sorry.

 

Yes, I do, but I fear you don't.

Value is simply the importance that a person attaches to things. Thus, labor can't create "value". Labor can create things, which any individual person may or may not value.

 

Individual psychology. Value is communal, as everyone knows. If you want to give me a million pounds for my used toilet paper, that is a sign only of muddle in your head: it is not 'value' in any meaningful sense.

 

Communities can't value anything. Only individual people can value things, and individuals value things subjectively. Different people value different things differently.

 

The Capitalist has the power to determine for himself that he earns the $2 profit from the $10 haircut. Unless the barbers unionize, there is an uneven balance of power here. In most cases, it is Man Against Millionaire. The Capitaliban preachers create the myth that the solitary barber is a free agent. Their unspoken goal with the fantasy that the barber can "choose" to starve if he feels he deserves more is the goal of picking off the individual workers one-by-one by tricking them into thinking individually. Though this may not be "stealing," this is extortion.

 

That's how they trap you. Defy self-appointed authority. You've been told that nonsense about who is owed, which leads to us feeling like we owe something to the predatory authorities because of their intellectual extortion.

To repeat, the one most talented for the job is owed that job. Giving him a natural incentive to develop his talent, by paying him to start learning that job, will put superior people in superior positions. That will create so much wealth that there will be no squabbling over crumbs, which is what we get from our upside-down system now, which demands that the talented sacrifice first and only get paid later.

 

Tell that to the world's governments. Value is communal, or nutty.

 

Both the preppies and the minorities deserve to be poor. In even the most unfair societies, those at the very bottom deserve to be there. This professor is trying to re-inforce the lie that the poor are the opposite of the rich.

Hillary Clinton, who we all know grew up as a spoiled sheltered snob, even if born only in the 10%, was shown by her church group "how the other half" lives. Ignoring all other White people and even most Black people, she and her susceptible classmates were introduced to a street gang. This mindset is followed by the slick-talking professor from the academic Merry-Go-Round, where children thinking they are on a high horse go spinning.

Besides, your main point, that the top goes to the bottom is not proved by the data. That's like saying that those who have head starts in a race aren't the only ones in front at the end of it. Someone extremely fast who risks injury might beat a few of them when he should be way out in front of all of them without destroying himself trying to catch up through most of the race. The starting point does matter. We should cut the children of the rich off at age 18. If we have to do it on our own, so must they. Their parents shudder at this, knowing what the rest of us have to go through in this race to the bottom.

 

Value is not communal. There is no such thing as a communal mind. It is individual people that ascribe value to things. Thus value is subjective and determined on an individual basis.

One person may value steak higher than shrimp, which another may have exactly the oppose preferences. The value of the steak or the shrimp is completely dependent upon the preferences of each individual.

 

Cool Story bro, but reality check.

I worked for UPS, who is Unionized through Teamsters. I was getting paid $8.50/hr, and a third of that was going to Union dues.

The State I worked in was not right to work, so I had no choice but to join the Union, and because I had to drive for 40 minutes to get to work, most weeks I was paying to have a job.

Later, I lost that job, and I took a similar position at Fed Ex. Fed Ex has no Union, but starting off I was getting paid $12.60/hr.
I would of had to work at UPS for 5 years to earn that much, and even then, I wouldn't actually, as Union dues increase as your wage increases.

Does this story somehow fit into your tidy model? Or did you not realize, that Businesses compete for labor? How much they pay in a wage and benefits is as much as what they need to attract people, and keep them from merely going to work at their competitor. That's the check workers have.

 

lol thanks for the advice, I'll check those books out, but they probably won't teach me much new seeing as how I'm currently a Senior at the University of Washington and getting a bachelor's degree in math. Hayek's theories and principles were largely propagated by Milton Friedman, who also won the Nobel Prize in economics and was a strong libertarian. So even if some of Hayek's ideas are slightly outdated, which, having read The Road to Serfdom (I'd recommend you actually take a look at it before simply dismissing it), I know are not outdated, the ideas that were very similar to his are still held up today and by recent Nobel Laureates. The fact is, giving people a "right to a job" means the government must choose the job, and will therefore be taking away somebody's freedom (either the employer or the employee).

I'll give you a small thought experiment to show you why giving people a "right to a job" won't work. Suppose you live in a small society of just 3 people. One of them is a doctor, one of them is a hunter, and you are a philosopher. Now, according to your logic, you have a "right to a job" which really means you have a "right to do something that you think is valuable in exchange for other people's goods/services" since money is just the medium of exchange between doing a job and getting a good. The question is, if you have a gun, do you have a right to put it to the doctors head and tell him to listen to your philosophy on life in exchange for health services? Do you have the right to do that with the hunter in exchange for food? What if neither one of them wish to exchange their goods (healthcare and food) for your "goods" which is ideas? Is that too bad for them because it is your "right" to have a job and feel like a productive member of your society?

The answer should be clear, but I'll let you think about it. When you are talking about millions of people, and millions of desires, needs, values and wants, the situation get's MUCH more complicated and unrealistic. The fact is, this is the real world, not never-land. Some people are born with certain skills that allow them to succeed in life. Some people get left behind (and it is every individual's responsibility to help those people out...not just the people with the guns). It's the way the world works, but NOBODY has a right to put a gun to somebody's head and force them to give them a job.

 

Except, most people who are poor, don't stay poor.

Here you go. I have data galore, thanks to the Treasury Department. Summary, third bullet point.

 

I've been unemployed over a month now. I go online and can apply to every job opening in the county I'm qualified for in under an hour for a days worth of jobs. True a lot of it is automated I don't have to type in the details the employment ap plugs in the spaces for me. I got 3 interviews and hired at one place that has taken over 2 months to do a criminal background check and still hasn't gotten back with me. They got angry at me for complaining about it and wondering do they all take this long. I have a perfectly clean record.

You would not believe the job requirements, 3 years experience for minimum wage, A bs degree for just over minimum wage. It's (*)(*)(*)(*)ing ridiculous. I even tried the day labor places. Most of which don't exist any longer. The ones that do aren't hiring. Not even day laborers. These are the (*)(*)(*)(*)ing jobs nobody wants to do unless they have no choice but to do so. Hot, dirty, heavy, etc.

Maybe I don't "deserve" a job. But do I deserve to live? Because without a job how do I live?

I'm living on plastic now.

 

What if the barber is a millionaire himself, and chooses to work for a capitalist because he loves cutting hair but doesn't want to deal with all the costs of running a shop? Is he still being exploited, as a millionaire against millionaire? What if the barber has more money than the capitalist and owns businesses himself? Is he an exploiter being exploited?

Oh, the turmoil! Well, at least you pointed out the vast capitalist conspiracy.

 

Have you thought about leaving Florida and going to where there are jobs? North Dakota is having a boom and unemployment is extremely low.

 

uhhuh, and where would I live when I get there a homeless camp in the middle of the woods. I don't have any money to rent a place. I have $150 left in the bank. It would cost me a huge amount of my credit in gas to drive there.

 

Apply for jobs there first. If you have a job lined up it will be easier. Go to goodwill and get a used tent to live in for the first few weeks. Check into a campground for a while. Good ones have showers and other such facilities. I lived in a campground for a while when I was between jobs. Taking a bus would be cheaper than driving, but having a car helps, so that is a toss up.

Regardless, you have to come up with some way to get an income. If what you are doing isn't working, you need to try something else.

 

Yeah the economy sucks right now. More money in the hands of government and less in the private market. Have you thought about waiting tables?I did that for years, if you hussle, get into a busy restaurant, you can really bank. I never made less the $20 an hour, and this is back when that meant something.

 

And meanwhile how will my family live. I pay 1/3rd of the bills. My mother and sister pays the rest. Should they move with me into this tent along with my sisters kids?

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I apply to everything I qualify for including waiting tables.

 

Might be worth another thread, but what do you say in interviews? When it comes to waiting tables, you always want to tell them you don't like down time, and like to pass the time restocking dishes, merrying condiments, bringing ice to the bar etc.. That is what they are really looking for, eye contact smile when you talk, positive attitude and approach them as they come up to you. This is always what we scored people on sitting on the other end. Side work is the key though, but you just may be in the wrong town too in Florida.

 

I'm confused. If you don't have an income, how do you pay the bills?

As for how do you pay if you move, that is a really weak excuse. There are numerous ways to send money to people. I supported my family for several months from halfway around the planet. You could send checks or money orders, wire money through Western Union, deposit the money directly into a bank account, pay the bills directly through numerous online sources, or at numerous storefronts, such as most large grocery stores, every FedEx and UPS location. You could even give them a prepaid credit card that you fill each month for them to use. There is no reason that you have to physically be there in order to help support them.

 

And they save us from dying from thirst too! We get to drink their trickledown!