Do some people really believe that they have a "right to a job"?

What makes you think management is competent enough to increase the pie? Relying on a clique of no-talent brown-noses is going to wreck both the workers and the company. Unionizing will force them to get rid of their dead weight.

The best way to do that is by promoting competent blue-collar workers. That used to be the American Way, start at the bottom and work your way up, not going off to college for four years and starting in management. The unions may have betrayed us in making a sweetheart deal, because they didn't want their best people to be promoted to management. But then management became hereditary, which guarantees decadent incompetence.

Businesses don't compete for labor. About the only thing the Diploma Dumboes learn in college is that blue-collar workers are stupid, lazy, greedy, and interchangeable.

. The corpies compete for who can pay the least too. They are flunkies of absentee-owner parasites, who would ask them, "Why are you paying $12.60 when UPS is only paying $8.50?"

By your own tidy model, UPS would have had to meet Fed Ex's offer or lose all their workers. What gives the employers the right to determine wages anyway?

You have no power and no security. I doubt if your situation will last. They hooked a whole generation in the 50s like that, thinking they had won the class warfare and never had to fight it again. Anyone who blames our job loss on standing up for our rights doesn't deserve any rights. Why do you look up to Sissies in Suitcoats? Their Daddies bought them their jobs, which is not the American Way.

 

Just by the hesitant way he talks, this acadummy sounds like someone trying to pull a fast one. And if he doesn't even know that the word data is plural, I lose all respect for him, just as even Diploma Dumboes would if he said, "I ain't got no chance of convincing nobody who's got a truly real education." Third, I don't care about the poor, who probably increase their looting because of Affirmative Action, just as many of the rich get where they are solely because of Daddy's Money.

 

Kill your parents, become an orphan, and get yourself adopted by a rich couple. Then you'll have it made and will never have to go through what real Americans have to go through to get a job. Even if all you deserve is a minimum-wage job, if your parents are rich, you won't have to accept what you deserve.

 

But in RightWingWorld, things like that never happen. In fact, you can fly on your magic carpet all over the country in one night and find the best job, which will pay you immediately, so what are you whining about?

 

Credit. No way could I support two households on no income. Your not very realistic.

 

I'm only describing what I, and millions of other people have done. Your credit is bound to run out soon. You will be even worse off then. You need to do something now to fix your situation. Obviously applying for jobs near where you live isn't working, so you need to do something else.

Apply online for jobs further out. When you get one, work out a way to do that job, whether it is camping out for a few weeks while you wait for your pay to start flowing, or you commute. Just staying where you are and living off credit is a recipe for disaster.

 

Well, at least you aren't asking why you should have to get up and leave your comfortable place of residence. That's a good start! The internet has given us a great boon, so put it to work. Find recruiters online who are recruiting for oil companies and other companies in North Dakota or other fast growing regions and apply for a job online or by telephone. Often they will then pay for you to get where you need to be. Or, find some other people in the same situation and pitch together to get there.
Is there no one else to help you out?

 

No I'm the one who helps them out not the other way around.

 

Then it's time to help yourself, and when those who have come to rely on you, let them know that you must take care of yourself first.

 

What an intelligent way to refute clear data. How amazing. I bet you started out in the work force making the same amount you do today. I started as a field hand, so I can see where he is coming from. Thankfully I earn more now, but was happy then to have a job to occupy my time.

 

Lazy management is tied to artificial limits placed on them by Unions that they can't work around. Not the only cause, to be sure, but aren't the check on laziness you would have us believe.

Yeah, if only the Unions themselves were interested in doing that, rather than just protecting worker bottom lines whenever it came up.

GM had workers just playing cards and getting drunk at their non-operating factories who they couldn't afford to fire due to the legal costs it would have required.

Hostess went bankrupt due to practices like forcing Ho Hos and Twinkies to be shipped on separate trunks, just to protect driver scope clauses. Didn't matter that it was a fiscally incoherent policy.

Yes they do. For skilled labor, it's a given, but what's less understood is that there's even layers to unskilled labor. Hence the minimum wage calculation here.

Not at all, UPS has workers who have worked there for years, with incomes and benefits far in excess of $12.60/hr. I just didn't want to stick around for how long that would take, as again, I was earning less than it took for me to pay to get to work. I could not afford to wait until the metric improved, I had other expenses that needed paying.

Should have checked yourself.

Fed Ex has never fired employees through a downsize, the last time that even came up, management instead opted to take a 20% cut in their own pay to make sure they wouldn't have to do that.

Loyalty to workers in spades, yet no Union coercing it? I suppose in your world, hell has frozen over.

I look up to men like my Grandfather, a farmer who sleeps on the bed he was born on, in a house his Father built.

Property rights in this country are based around the lifestyle of men like him, which back in day, over 90% of American were. Farmers.

And by being a farmer, you were, de facto, a business owner, with all the rights and concerns that implies. It was a paradigm that defined our economics for over a century. Your "American Way" is merely the product of the industrial age, overstepping the Agrarian age that preceded it. It called for a top-down, streamlined economy, whereas before everything was far more decentralized.

And now, the favor is being returned. Your Industrial Age economy is now too being overstepped, by the Information Age, making your neo-Mercantile notions obsolete, (if they were ever valid in the first place). Reason being, the Information Age is returning everything to decentralization, atomizing the workforce.

And I wouldn't have it any other way. Rights are centered on individuals, not collectives. Economics should be as well.

 

I'm sorry, was there an actual counter argument in here somewhere? I'm just seeing a list of ad hominem's and you with no data to offer a rebuttal with. Hell, you don't even present a counter-theory.

I'll remind you, he's not quoting his own data, he's quoting the Treasury Department (albeit, from a prior study). Who made the very conclusions he's quoting.

You would know that, if you had read the summary:

You scroll down with that arrow on the side of your screen, Mr. Diploma. That's how you get to the summary on the 2nd page.

 

I don't mean to be rude, but what are you spending your time doing right now? I noticed that you are a guru on this site with over 8 thousand posts. I'm not sure which ones were before you lost your job and which were after, but if I were having as many problems as you, I wouldn't be on here arguing with people about whether or not you deserve a job or not. The fact is, you don't have a job, and you do need a job. There are 112 hours a week that you aren't sleeping. Since you aren't working, you should be spending your time trying to upgrade your skills so that maybe you can get a job, not wasting it surfing the web on useless forums like this. Look into sales jobs (many of them pay on commission and aren't too hard to get started in), and work on educating yourself. The following websites have some great resources for independently educating yourself.

http://www.learnerstv.com/
amazon.com
MIT opencourseware
the public library

If I were you, I would be doing everything I can trying to figure out why people aren't hiring me, and trying to get a job. Again, I don't mean to be rude, but I don't buy the idea that you are spending all your time (112 hours per week) looking for a job and can't find ANYTHING that pays at least minimum wage. Lots of fast food restaurants are looking for employees, and nicer restaurants need waiters. You could save some money and try going to a bartending school to become a bartender, or just be a bar back for a while and then work up to bartender. You could also start educating yourself by reading every day, or spending some time each day trying to learn something that will help you in the job market. You have a computer, so you could learn how to program and maybe get a job as a web developer or computer programmer (you also need a strong mathematics and physics background, but you can take full courses in calculus and physics online these days for free).

I'm sure your family loves you, and supports you, but it's time you got some tough love. You need to grow up and stop complaining about your problems and start taking responsibility for your life. If you want a job, you need to work hard to show that you deserve a job by providing value to whatever company you apply for. If you can't give them a good reason to hire you, they aren't going to hire you. But the fact is, if you are a legal American Citizen with at least a high school education, you should be able to find something productive to do for the world. I'm not saying this because I think you are a bad person or stupid in any way, I am saying this because I really care about people like you, and I know you are capable of being a productive member of society, so I'm trying to help you.

 

You can do as a friend of mine did. He borrowed a bucket and squeegee and went business to business offering to clean windows for a fee. He did such a great job that he started getting call backs, and then had to hire others to help him. He now has multiple trucks and a thriving business. A college student I met recently does auto detailing on site. He charges $150 and does such a thorough job on a car that people rave about his work. He puts time, care and attention into every detailing and has no trouble finding work. Here's the thing: you have to be presentable, personable, and recognize that the world doesn't owe you a living. And, if you are successful at that, half the people on this forum will hate you for your success.

 

Or worse, if you hire someone they will call you a slavemaster.

 

What I think confuses a lot of people is the difference between a "right of employment" and the "right of a job".

Yes, I have a right to work and be employed. But do I have a right say to be an auto mechanic? Or a TV broadcaster? Or an investment banker?

No, not at all, unless I have the appropriate training and experience.

That is the difference, and it is what confuses a lot of people. Yes, everybody who is a legal resident in this country has a right to employment.

However, finding a job is entirely up to them.

 

Can they enforce this right if never employed? If not, do they have such a right? If so, who has to give them a job?

 

That is all up to them. They have a right to work, but nobody has to hire them unless they apply for a job they are qualified to perform.

And there are lots of jobs available for the unskilled. The problem is that few people want to do these jobs. Something has been lost in this country over the decades when it comes to unskilled labor. We have so few in this country willing to do it that we bring in immigrants to fulfill many of those jobs.

If somebody wants work, it is out there. All that is needed is the will to actually look for it and take it.

 

I think what Mushroom is trying to say is people have a right to look for work, not get work. Is that correct Mushroom? If so I agree completely. Saying "I have a right to a job" is like saying "I have a right to someone else's money." If you argue that, then everyone else has a right to your money to, and you can throw ownership out the window.

- - - Updated - - -

Another issue is the minimum wage. Many unskilled jobs only merit wages below the minimum wage rate. Unskilled citizens cannot legally be paid below minimum wage, so the result is unskilled citizens are not hired. Instead, immigrants without documentation are hired, or machines are invested in to do the work instead.

Many unskilled workers just don't have the option.

 

Your 49 years old, companies cannot officially say this but your too old for many to consider hiring you for employment over a worker that is say in their twenties. Jobs such as servers, customer service, retail and the like your to old to get. I'm in my 40's and disabled and the only way I ever could work is for myself and "under the table" work. Your in the same boat.

I suggestion is get books on working in the Underground Economy, screw the system and work for yourself for cash doing things people will pay you for. For example you can drive one option could be to services with that for cash, I for example would pay someone to take me to and from Tampa on a Saturday to go to a gaming convention if the cost was fair. Say $100 + gas for two pickups and drop offs maybe with a stop to eat somewhere. If that is four hours of work and its good money. You need to think along these lines as at least an option IMHO.

If nothing else it is a good idea to keep going while looking for a regular job and you could still do this kind of work on the side.

 

Then I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Sorry, but your post sounds like a lot of whining to me.

If some company is telling you it takes 2 months to finish a background check, then they are blowing smoke. Mine was done within 48 hours. I do not even think it took the Military-FBI 2 months to approve my Security Clearance. If it is taking that long for them, odds are they are just feeding you a line.

And I am sorry, a company requiring a college degree and 3 years experience for minimum wage? WTF kind of claim is that? I can get minimum wage at McDonalds with no experience or college. So wtf, is your degree in some kind of completely worthless skill, like basket weaving? There are lots of jobs out there for college grads, fast food management comes immediately to mind. Because if you have a degree that means you have the basic education (English, advanced math, etc) that a lot of companies want for management trainees.

And day labor, that is BS. What you do is go to a job placement company like Robert Half, Adecco, Volt, or any of the hundreds of others that places qualified individuals. They find you real jobs and careers.

And BTW, background checks are nowadays not so much on criminal records, as they are financial ones. Employees that are deep in debt or living beyond their means are more likely to fall prey to company theft. People with a spotty employment record have probably been fired a lot for cause. An individual who has worked for (or has a spouse that works for) the competition and did not mention this in an interview may be more interested in stealing intellectual property then actually working for you.

This is really what a background check is for, not seeing if you were arrested for shoplifting when you were 15, and that you have 2 unpaid parking tickets.

 

Your guru comes out in a clown suit, goes through the gyrations of a clown, and uses clown grammar in his sales pitch. But if I don't take this clown seriously, you erupt with "Ad Hominem! Ad Hominem!.

I'll trade you my Ad Homines for your Petiones Principii. It is in the American interest to ask what this mobility proves about whether these class-climbers deserved to be moved up. We have Affirmative Action for not only incompetent minorities, but also for college graduates whose 6th Grade Grammar prove that such indentured-servitude education is a fraud, and for the spawn of the upper middle class who finance their climb with Daddy's Money. We don't need Ambitious Imbeciles getting ahead, so class mobility doesn't tell us what we need to know.

 

Yes, you do have a right to be, say, an oncologist, if you have the best natural talent for that job. The fact that business and society don't think that they owe these people that job is why we get people unfit for that job and millions die from cancer because the ruling class demands that we have a "sink or swim" attiude. Under that forced perspective, most people drown.

In other words, you order us to buy our jobs. Our illegitimate ruling class's demand that we submit to indentured-servitude education only means getting a job by going four years without a job, which is the same as buying a job, just as their private method of giving allowances to their brats is the same as paying them a salary to stay in college. So their way is the way we should treat the talented, who are the true heirs in the next generation. The obsolete hereditary classes better start preaching what they practice. But that, of course, would limit education to the fittest and not the "fatherest," so Plutocrat, Jr. might wind up desperately looking for a blue-collar job, which his Daddy has deported to sweatshops in order to increase his family's value.

You obviously don't care about getting the most talented people in the jobs they are fit for, because you never focus on that and hope we don't see your coverup. This present obsolete system puts inferior people, bluebloods and brown-noses, in superior positions. Because of poor materials at the top, the whole economic structure collapses. So the people who benefit from this system should take the blame and the punishment for obstructing our ability to make a living wage.

 

Sorry, this is all Marxist drivel (or more accurately Groucho Marxist drivel).

To begin with, you are saying that if I have the natural talent to be a medical doctor, it is the job of "societ" to get me trained and put me into a position to do that job? What complete and utter nonsense.

What if I tell you that you have the natural talent to clean toilets? Guess what, I guess it is my job then to find you a job cleaning toilets, and that is all you can ever do because "somebody" 9teachers, The State, etc) has determined that is all you are or ever will be qualified to do. However, if you work this long and hard enough, you might become a supervisor of toilet cleaners.

Or what if your best placement is determined to be that of the fabricator of B1 bombers? Yes, highly technical and skilled, but since we no longer need B1s to be built, should we continue to build them, just to keep you employed?

You throw in lots of nice platitudes and nonsense, but that is all that it is, nonsense. Sorry, but history has proven that the historical dialectic was full of crap.

And if anybody believes they have a "right to a job", then I think I can provide one. There are a lot of need for toilet cleaners and street sweepers.

 

Again, I don't see a counter argument here. You're attacking the person, not addressing the study or the topic..

I just offered proof, that's what the Treasury Department study is, and it shows, yes, people at the top do go to the bottom. Income mobility works both ways.

Too late to claim Ignoratio elenchi, you took a stance on the issue, and the study proves you wrong.

Except there's no way to test for that. The only way to know is if you're in the job, doing the work, excelling at what you're doing.
And to do what you're good at, also requires for there to be demand for what you're doing.

We're graduating more psychology majors per year than there are Clinical psychology positions in the entire country. So even if, say, half we're actually good at it, I doubt many will be getting those jobs.