Evidence for the Holocaust?

Sorry but I asked how it was calculated not where you copied the number from. Also you understand it's illegal to say or write anything else in Germany?

 

People who die of old age are replaced in the total population statistics by those who were born during that time period, the earliest estimates were based on total global Jewish population comparisons.

No they were under orders to single out Jews for liquidation.

Here are the Special Operational Reports of the Einsatzgrupen to the SS-Reichssicherheitshauptamt Reich Main Security Office (RSHA) detailing the targeting of Jews, the dates of the killings, where they were killed, and how many:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/sitreptoc.html

Here is the authentication of those reports by SS-Sturmbannführer Kurt Lindow chief of subdepartment IV A 1 [of the RSHA] who received them.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/german/einsatzgruppen/esg/authenticity.html


Here is the the unrepentant testimony of SS-Gruppenführer Otto Ohlendorf head of Einsatzgruppen D outlining the rear actions of the Einsatzagruppen regarding the intentional murder of ethnic Jews in the East based on their blood including the women and children:


Q. What were these orders?

A. These orders had as their purpose to make it as easy as possible for the unfortunate victim and to prevent the brutality of the men from leading to inevitable excesses. Thus I first ordered that only so many victims should be brought to the place of execution as the execution commandos could handle. Any individual action by any individual man was forbidden. The Einsatzkommandos shot in a military manner only upon orders. It was strictly ordered to avoid any maltreatment, undressing was not permitted. The taking of any personal possessions was not permitted. Publicity was not permitted, and at the very moment when it was noted that a man had experienced joy in carrying out these executions, it was ordered that this man should never participate in any more executions. The men could not report voluntarily, they were ordered.
Q. Why did you not prevent the liquidations?

A. Even if I use the most severe standard in judging this, I had as little possibility as any of the codefendants here to prevent this order. There was only one thing, a senseless martyrdom through suicide, senseless because this would not have changed anything in the execution of this order, for this order was not an order of the SS, it was an order of the Supreme Commander in Chief and the Chief of State; it was not only carried out by Himmler or Heydrich. The army had to carry it out too, the High Command of the Army as well as the commanders in the east and southeast who were the superior commanders for the Einsatzgruppen and Einsatzkommandos. If I could imagine a theoretical possibility, then there was only the refusal on the part of those persons who were in the uppermost hierarchy and could appeal to the Supreme Commander and Chief of State, because they had the only possibility of getting access to him. They were, after all, the highest bearers of responsibility in the theater of operations.

Q. Did you not try in Nikolaev to dissuade the Reich Leader SS from this order?

A. The situation in Nikolaev was especially depressing in a moral sense, because in agreement with the army, we had excluded a large number of Jews, the farmers, from the executions. When the Reich Leader SS was in Nikolaev on 4 or 5 October, I was reproached for this measure and he ordered that henceforth, even against the will of the army, the executions should take place as planned. When the Reich Leader SS arrived at my headquarters, I had assembled all available commanders of my Einsatzgruppe. The Reich Leader addressed these men and repeated the strict order to kill all those groups which I have designated. He added that he alone would carry the responsibility, as far as accounting to the Fuehrer was concerned. None of the men would bear any responsibility, but he demanded the execution of this order, even though he knew how harsh these measures were. Nevertheless, after supper, I spoke to the Reich Leader and I pointed out the inhuman burden which was being imposed on the men in killing all these civilians. I didn't even get an answer.

Q. Now, I cannot pronounce it correctly, the Karaims were another sect whom you encountered in the south of Russia, and this sect had no Jewish blood, but it did share the religious confessions of the Jews. Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. You submitted to Berlin the question whether the Karaims should be killed, and I understood you to say that the order you got from Berlin was you shall not kill them for they have nothing in common with the Jews except the confession?

A. Yes.

Q. Will you explain to the Court, please, what difference there was between the Karaims and the Krimchaks, except Jewish blood ?

A. I understand your question completely in reference to the eastern Jews, in the case of the Jews who were found in the eastern campaign. These Jews were to be killed-according to the order-for the reason that they were considered carriers of bolshevism, and, therefore, considered as endangering the security of the German Reich. This concerned the Jews who were found in Russia, and it was not known to me that the Jews in all of Europe were being killed, but on the contrary I knew that down to my dismissal these Jews were not killed, but it was attempted at all costs to get them to emigrate. The fact that the Karaims were not killed showed that the charge of the prosecution that persons were persecuted for their religion is not correct, for the Karaims had that Jewish religion, but they could not be killed because they did not belong to the Jewish race.

Q. I think, Witness, you answered exactly what I had antici-

*Sect which refused the Talmud and adopted the Old Testament as sole source of faith.
**Turkish Jews of mixed Semitic and Tartaric blood.

Page 275

Stated in the last sentence, "They did not belong to the JewishRace," is that right?

A. Yes, That is right.

Q. They were found in Russia?

A. Yes.

Q. But they participated in the Jewish confession in Russia?

A. The Karaims had the Jewish faith, yes.

Q. But your race authorities in Berlin could find no trace of Jewish blood in them?

A. Yes.

Q. So they came absolutely under the Fuehrer Decree or the Streckenbach Order to kill all Jews?

A. Yes.

Q. Because of blood?

A. Because they were of Jewish origin. For you must understand the Nazi ideology, as you call it. It was the opinion of the Fuehrer that in Russia and in bolshevism, the representatives of this blood showed themselves especially suitable for this idea, therefore, the carriers of this blood became especially suitable representatives of the bolshevism. That is not on account of their faith, or their religion, but because of their human make-up and character.

Q. And because of their blood, right?

A. I cannot express it any more definitely than I stated, from their nature and their characteristics. Their blood, of course, has something to do with it, according to National Socialist ideology.

Q. Let's see, if I can understand it; we've got a lot of time, I hope. What was the distinction except blood?

A. Between whom?

B. Between the Karaims and the Krimchaks?

A. The difference of the blood, yes.

Q. Only the difference in blood, is that so?

A. Yes.

Q. So the criterion and the test which you applied in your slaughter was blood?

A. The criteria which I used were the orders which I got, and it has not been doubted during the entire trial, that in this
Fuehrer Order the Jews were designated as the ones who belonged to that circle in Russia and who were to be killed.

Q. Tell us how orders that you operated under in 1941 in Russia differed from the order which controlled killing of Jews in Poland in 1939 ?

A. In Poland individual actions had been ordered, while in Russia, during the entire time of the commitment, the killing of all Jews had been ordered. Special actions in Poland had been ordered, whose contents I do not know in detail.

COL. AMEN: Were all victims, including the men, women, and children executed in the same manner?

OHLENDORF: Until the spring of 1942, yes. Then an order came from Himmler that in the future women and children were to be killed only in gas vans.

COL. AMEN: How had women and children been killed previously?

OHLENDORF: In the same was as the men - by shooting.

COL. POKROVSKY: You said that mostly women and children were executed in these vans. For what reason?

OHLENDORF: That was a special order from Himmler to the effect that women and children were not to be exposed to the mental strain of the executions; and thus the men of the kommandos, mostly married men, should not be compelled to aim at women and children.

THE TRIBUNAL (Gen. Niktchenko): In your testimony you said that the Einsatz group had the object of annihilating the Jews and the commissars, is that correct?

OHLENDORF: Yes.

THE TRIBUNAL (Gen. Niktchenko): And in what category did you consider the children? For what reason were the children massacred?

OHLENDORF: The order was that the Jewish population should be totally exterminated.

THE TRIBUNAL (Gen. Niktchenko): Including the children?

OHLENDORF: Yes.

THE TRIBUNAL (Gen. Niktchenko): Were all the Jewish children murdered?

OHLENDORF: Yes.

http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/Einsatz2c.htm
http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/nuremberg/Ohlentestimony.html

Those who died of natural causes and not selected for immediate extermination were granted death certificates if we take the number of death certificates issued at Auschwitz and extrapolate them to account for natural deaths in the 4 other extermination camps well under a million died of natural causes:


In 1989, the Auschwitz Archives in Moscow were opened for the first time since the Soviets liberated the camp in January 1945. These archives contain thousands of documents which survived destruction by the camp authorities when they fled the advancing Soviet forces. Among the items discovered were the Auschwitz Death Books. These books contain the death certificates of registered prisoners only. Nonregistered prisoners who were killed upon arrival did not receive a death certificate. The death books are incomplete. They contain the certificates of 68,864 registered prisoners who died from August 1941 to December 1943.There are no books for 1944 or periods prior to August 1941.They are either missing or were destroyed. Also, there are a number of missing books for the period August 1941 to December 1943. However, each book contains between 1400 and 1500 entries. [29] By interpolating 1500 entries into each missing death book we can arrive at approximately 80,000 deaths of registered prisoners for 1942 and 1943. [30] Dr. Tadeusz Paczula, a former Auschwitz inmate, was in the camp from 1940. He also kept the death registries for registered inmates. He later testified that for the two years following the summer of 1942, about 130,000 names were entered into the death registries. [31]

Nevertheless, the nearly 69,000 death certificates available afford researchers the opportunity to see exactly what was killing registered prisoners. It is now known on the basis of these certificates that very few prisoners died from typhus. [32] They show that only 2060 of the 68,864 deaths were from typhus. While typhus can be lethal, it need not necessarily be so. Lucie Adelsberger, a Jewish prisoner and camp doctor, got typhus, was quarantined, and resumed her duties after recovery. [33] Similarly, Ella Lingens Reiner, a German doctor, who was also a prisoner, contracted typhus and survived. [34] One of the early Auschwitz memoirs, written in 1947, recounts an episode with camp doctor Josef Mengele, later to become known as the "Angel of Death" for his medical experiments. Mengele was disturbed about the typhus epidemic. The former prisoner wrote: "Alas, typhus epidemics did rage in the camp, but at this time we had comparatively few victims. The same day he [Mengele] sent us a large quantity of serum and directed mass vaccinations." [35] Petro Mirchuk, a Ukranian prisoner, wrote that a delousing in August 1942, the worst month of the epidemic, "eliminated the epidemic and the billions of fleas and lice ceased to exist." [36]


http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/body-disposal/

Including the appx. 3 million who were gassed and the 2 million murdered by the Einsatzgrupen by hanging and shooting, along with the less than a million who died of disease and starvation the total figure would be well within the 5 to 6 million estimates.

 

It was based on population comparisons of the pre-war global Jewish population and the post-war global Jewish population.

 

You have been provided the authenticated Special Operational Reports for the rear actions of the Einsatzgrupen detailing the numbers of Jews killed and where, you have no valid response to these documented facts.

You have no evidence for this claim whatsoever, and the first speech alone makes it abundantly clear that the final solution was extermination not deportation.

 

Yes we have the records of Jews being deported from concentration camps to the extermination camps, however, they were never registered at their places of destination or issued death certificates because 2/3's of the Jews sent to the extermination camps of Treblinka, Auschwitz, Sobibor, Belzec, Majdanek, and Chelmno were selected for immediate death by gassing.

Evidence that relatively few Jews died of natural causes in the extermination camps.

Yes.

 

Soap was made from human bodies on a limited experimental scale:


Though evidence does exist of small-scale soap production, possibly experimental, in the camp at Stutthof concentration camp near Danzig/Gdansk,mainstream scholars of the Holocaust consider the idea that the Nazis manufactured soap on an industrial scale to be part of World War II folklore. Historian Israel Gutman has stated that "it was never done on a mass scale".In Hitler's Death Camps: The Sanity of Madness Konnilyn Feig concludes that the Nazis "did indeed use human fat for the making of soap at Stutthof," albeit in limited quantity. Holocaust historian Robert Melvin Spector writes that "her analysis seems sound, given the known fact that the S.S. used everything it could obtain from its prisoners", including hair, skin and bones.

In 2006 a sample of the soap archived at the International Court of Justice in The Hague was given for analysis to Andrzej Stołyhwo, an expert in the chemistry of fats from the Gdansk University of Technology in Poland. He concluded that some of the fat in the sample tested was of human origin. The sample of soap had previously been used as evidence in the post-World War II Nuremberg trials, but at the time the technology was unavailable to determine whether the soap had been produced from human fat. The human remains used to make the soap were believed to have been brought from Kaliningrad, Bydgoszcz and Stutthof concentration camp.

Today Holocaust deniers employ this controversy to criticize the veracity of the Nazi genocide.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soap_made_from_human_corpses

The prosecutor: The experiments of the Anatomical Institute in the production the soap from the corpses and tanning of human skin for industrial purposes were conducted on a wide scale. I submit a document[...] to the tribunal, which consists of the testimony of Sigmund Mazur, one of the direct participants of the production of soap from the human fat, he was helper-laboratory assistant at the Danzig Anatomical institute.

"The question: Please tell us how soap was produced from the human fat at the Danzig Anatomical institute?

The answer: In summer of 1943 in the yard of the Anatomical institute a two-storey stone building containing three chambers was built. This building was designed for the purpose of utilizing corpses and cooking the bones, as the professor Spanner officially declared. The laboratory was defined as the institution of taking down skeletons, burning meat and superfluous bones, but in the winter 1943-1944 he the year of the prof Spanner instructed us to collect the human fat which was not to be thrown away any more. This order was given to Reichert and Borkmann.

Prof Spanner gave me the recipe for the production of soap from the human fat in February 1944. According to this recipe 5 kg of the human fat appertained to be mixed with 10 the litres of water and 500 to 1000 grams of the caustic soda. This mixture was cooked for two up to three hours, then it was allowed to cool. Then the soap rose to the surface, while water and settlings were under it. To this mixture a pinch of salt and soda was added and it was cooked again for two up to three hours. After cooling the soap was poured into a mould.

The prosecutor: I will present to the tribunal these moulds, in which the soap congealed, and half finished samples of soap from the human fat, found in Gdańsk. I quote farther:

"The soap had a very unpleasant scent: the Bilzo formula was added to remove it.

Borkmann and Reichert picked the fat from human corpses, and I cooked soap from the bodies of men and women. The process itself of cooking occupied from three to seven days. During production in which I personally participated, more than 25 kg of soap was produced; on this about 70 to 80 kg of human fat was used, gathered from about four hundred corpses. We gave back ready soap to prof Spanner who kept them.

The case of producing soap from corpses was a matter of concern, as far as I know, to the nazi goverment. We had at the Anatomical institute inspections of the minister of education Rust, the minister of health dr. Conti, the gauleiter of Danzig Albert Forster, the professors of medical institutes also visited the institute.

I took 4 kg of this soap for washing and cleaning clothes. [...]Reichert, Borkmann, von Bargen and our boss, prof Spanner, they also used this soap.

Just like with human fat prof Spanner instructed us to collect the human skin which after cleaning from the fat was subjected the working of some chemical substances. Works connected with human skin were led under the direction of the older assistant von Bargena and prof Spannera himself. Finished skins were packed in chests and used for purposes unknown to me."

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Testi...rg_in_the_case_of_Danzig_Anatomical_Institute

 

No he was correct, those selected for forced labor Jews and non-Jews alike were to be worked to death by slow starvation as part of the broader blood and soil policy of the Reich entailing Germanic racial supremacy over the Untermensch of the world to be enslaved under Aryan rule and the extermination of the Lebensunwertes Leben (Jews, Gypsies, Poles, Slavs, etc) under Generalplan Ost to clear the path for Aryan Lebensraum.

 

This is simply not true, those who died of natural causes were issued death certificates, less than 1 million death certificates were issued to Jews, the overwhelming majority of Jews (2/3s) were selected for immediate death by gassing upon entrance to the camps, the remaining 1/3 were to die by slow starvation and forced labor.

There was intent, those selected for forced labor Jews and non-Jews alike were to be worked to death by slow starvation as part of the broader blood and soil policy of the Reich entailing Germanic racial supremacy over the Untermensch of the world to be enslaved under Aryan rule and the extermination of the Lebensunwertes Leben (Jews, Gypsies, Poles, Slavs, etc) under Generalplan Ost to clear the path for Aryan Lebensraum, Aktion Reinhard (the final solution) was simply a corollary of the overall plan of genocide of all undesirables in the East under General Plan Ost to make way for Germanization, this plan of expansion of the Reich is detailed by Hitler himself in Mein Kampf.


Therefore we National Socialists have purposely drawn a line through the line of conduct followed by pre-War Germany in foreign policy. We put an end to the perpetual Germanic march towards the South and West of Europe and turn our eyes towards the lands of the East. We finally put a stop to the colonial and trade policy of pre-War times and pass over to the territorial policy of the future.

But when we speak of new territory in Europe to-day we must principally think of Russia and the border States subject to her.

This colossal Empire in the East is ripe for dissolution. And the end of the Jewish domination in Russia will also be the end of Russia as a State. We are chosen by Destiny to be the witnesses of a catastrophe which will afford the strongest confirmation of the nationalist theory of race. But it is our task, and it is the mission of the National Socialist Movement, to develop in our people that political mentality which will enable them to realize that the aim which they must set to themselves for the fulfilment of their future must not be some wildly enthusiastic adventure in the footsteps of Alexander the Great but industrious labour with the German plough,for which the German sword will provide the soil.


http://greatwar.nl/books/meinkampf/meinkampf.pdf

 

^obscenely long quotes, just copied and pasted multiple times, do nothing to support your argument. All they do is show how badly you need some very basic skills, like the ability to glean important facts from text. I mean really dude, if you wanted to pull three sentences from Genesis, I wouldn't be surprised now if you just copied and pasted all of Genesis.

 

No, that's not the case. While the Danish source I cited differentiates between concentration camps and "mixed" concentration camps, most don't, but even then half of the deaths in concentration camps occurred in the last year of the war. It's not mere coincidence that the Germans had severe food shortages. And no, he's wrong - it was not intended that every single person sent to a work camp die. If that were the case, they'd have been sent to extermination camps. der.

It's odd that you insist on strict adherence to such statements but have yet to support them.

 

Stalin was not a Jew. The Wilton List has been thoroughly debunked, the names and ethnicity of the commissars are listed in the following link, they weren't even close to being majority Jewish,

http://semiticcontroversies.blogspot.com/2008/10/judeo-bolshevik-debacle.html

 

Yes half of a million which including the 3 million who died by gassing at the extermination camps and the 2 million shot and hung during the rear actions of the Einsatzgrupen would fall well within the 5 to 6 million estimates.

 

My point (which you missed) has been proven. Dude, don't post obscenely long quotes. Take a closer look at what you responded to.

 

It was intended that the 1/3 of Jews sent to the EXTERMINATION camps were to be worked to death, they were not intended to be allowed to live, those who survived their forced labor were to be liquidated when they were no longer needed, this fact is stated quite clearly in the transcripts of the Wansee Conference:

Under proper guidance, in the course of the final solution
the Jews are to be allocated for appropriate labor in the East.
Able-bodied Jews, separated according to sex, will be taken in
large work columns to these areas for work on roads, in the
course of which action doubtless a large portion will be
eliminated by natural causes.

The possible final remnant will, since it will undoubtedly
consist of the most resistant portion, have to be treated
accordingly, because it is the product of natural selection and
would, if released, act as a the seed of a new Jewish revival
(see the experience of history.)

In the course of the practical execution of the final
solution, Europe will be combed through from west to east.
Germany proper, including the Protectorate of Bohemia and
Moravia, will have to be handled first due to the housing problem
and additional social and political necessities.

http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/Holocaust/wansee-transcript.html

I did back it up with supporting evidence, those not selected for immediate extermination were granted death certificates if we take the number of death certificates issued at Auschwitz and extrapolate them to account for natural deaths in the 4 other extermination camps, well under a million died of natural causes:


In 1989, the Auschwitz Archives in Moscow were opened for the first time since the Soviets liberated the camp in January 1945. These archives contain thousands of documents which survived destruction by the camp authorities when they fled the advancing Soviet forces. Among the items discovered were the Auschwitz Death Books. These books contain the death certificates of registered prisoners only. Nonregistered prisoners who were killed upon arrival did not receive a death certificate. The death books are incomplete. They contain the certificates of 68,864 registered prisoners who died from August 1941 to December 1943.There are no books for 1944 or periods prior to August 1941.They are either missing or were destroyed. Also, there are a number of missing books for the period August 1941 to December 1943. However, each book contains between 1400 and 1500 entries. [29] By interpolating 1500 entries into each missing death book we can arrive at approximately 80,000 deaths of registered prisoners for 1942 and 1943. [30] Dr. Tadeusz Paczula, a former Auschwitz inmate, was in the camp from 1940. He also kept the death registries for registered inmates. He later testified that for the two years following the summer of 1942, about 130,000 names were entered into the death registries. [31]

Nevertheless, the nearly 69,000 death certificates available afford researchers the opportunity to see exactly what was killing registered prisoners. It is now known on the basis of these certificates that very few prisoners died from typhus. [32] They show that only 2060 of the 68,864 deaths were from typhus. While typhus can be lethal, it need not necessarily be so. Lucie Adelsberger, a Jewish prisoner and camp doctor, got typhus, was quarantined, and resumed her duties after recovery. [33] Similarly, Ella Lingens Reiner, a German doctor, who was also a prisoner, contracted typhus and survived. [34] One of the early Auschwitz memoirs, written in 1947, recounts an episode with camp doctor Josef Mengele, later to become known as the "Angel of Death" for his medical experiments. Mengele was disturbed about the typhus epidemic. The former prisoner wrote: "Alas, typhus epidemics did rage in the camp, but at this time we had comparatively few victims. The same day he [Mengele] sent us a large quantity of serum and directed mass vaccinations." [35] Petro Mirchuk, a Ukranian prisoner, wrote that a delousing in August 1942, the worst month of the epidemic, "eliminated the epidemic and the billions of fleas and lice ceased to exist." [36]

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/body-disposal/

 

I bolded the important part, the only really long quote I posted was the testimony showing that Jews were targeted for being Jews.

 

Of the approximately 6 million Jews deaths during the holocaust, 2/3 of the Jews were selected for immediate extermination by hanging, shooting, and later gassing, the remaining 1/3 were intentionally worked to death.

 

Again, despite your obscenely long quotations, they don't back up what you suggest. You're of course welcome to discuss the topic casually, but if you want to insist on particular statements and figures held to tightly, you're going to have to get particular statements and figures that firmly back them up, not just loose statements that don't contradict them.

which, again, doesn't support what you claim. Your claim is that only those for whom we have death certificates died due to natural causes. It's an absurd claim, made only more absurd by the fact that it's so loosely drawn from information at one concentration camp (really an extermination camp) that is well known to have been the most active extermination camp. Even so, the evidence there suggests that around 15% of those who died at Auschwitz were 'given' death certificates.

 

hmmmm.... I wonder if I can possibly find equally compelling evidence to support a differing point of view... ahah! I've got it!

Nut uh!



^this is because you insist on your specific claims w/o any support of those claims. Yes, you continually provide obscenely long quotes, but ones that don't support your statements. This isn't hard, and I don't see why you'd care to continue pushing this silly nonsense. Back up your claims, or agree to just discuss the issue casually.

 

I have provided evidence for my claims, all Jews not executed by hanging, gassing, and shooting were given death certificates, less than 1 million death certificates were issued to Jews, furthermore, I have provided you with the transcripts from the Wansee Conference proving conclusively that the Jews sent to the extermination camps and selected for forced labor were not to survive and if they did they were to be liquidated when they were no longer of any use.

 

There was nothing long in that quote, it is a primary source stating quite clearly that those Jews selected for forced labor were to be worked to death and if they did not die during their slavery they were to be executed as soon as they were no longer needed.

If they died of natural causes at the death camps why would they have not received death certificates? The fact is through the transfer papers we know approximately how many Jews were sent to the camps and we know that they were never registered at the camps this is because 2/3's of them were selected for immediate death by gassing. Do you have any evidence whatsoever for your claim that over 1 million Jews died of starvation and disease?

Those who were not systematically executed were again granted death certificates, less than 300,000 death certificates were issued in the concentration camps:



Funny that the extermination camps are not even listed by the Red Cross, gee I wonder why the Nazi's didn't allow the Red Cross to inspect the extermination camps.

 

I'd like to hear about all these millions of Jews who fled Europe deep into the USSR out of the Nazi's reach.

 

The facts are that nobody will ever have an exact number of total deaths, death by starvation, death by hanging, death by shooting, death by gas, death by disease for ALL of the victims of Nazi extermination efforts.

As for death certificates issued by the nazis - not really worth the paper they were printed on, considering they were so selective as to who was issued one.

Aktion Reinhart murdered nearly two million jews (estimates based on travel documentation and forensics).

Given the Nazi's "Hunger Plan" which say millions of people dying of starvation and associated disease, and considering the plan extended to all jewish ghettos in addition to all occupied people, its a safe bet that a fairly large number of jews died in that fashion.

 

Is "straw men" your word of the week?

 

seems like it's yours since you insist on making them

 

This is true but from my understanding those who died of starvation and disease were those selected to be worked to death as slave labor and were registered at the camps and were granted death certificates when they died of "natural" causes. It's rather irrelevant though considering that the Wansee transcripts make it clear that those selected for slave labor were to be executed as soon as they were no longer needed, so regardless of whether they died of starvation, disease, hanging, shooting, or gassing they were all murdered as the intent was for them to die no matter what.