Conversation with a Pastor

Well. If I didn't have an educational take I would have quit Sunday School at age 9 when I couldn't believe Jonah sat in the belly of a fish for 3 days.. Now I understand the short story is just a comic novella.

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Well. If I didn't have an educational take I would have quit Sunday School at age 9 when I couldn't believe Jonah sat in the belly of a fish for 3 days.. Now I understand the short story is just a comic novella.

 

The story makes little sense.... Especially since the Israelites had just witnessed 9 plagues and miracles to get them out of Egypt. Its a morality tale.. and probably never happened at all.

 

Exodus is a fable that creates a history and identity for the Jewish people. It didn't happen.. and Joshua didn't have huge armies (or anyway to feed them) nor did he conquer and destroy the other Canaanite tribes.

There are so many silly aspects of the Exodus story.... Like why were they eating manna when they had their livestock and could burn dung for fuel.

Even today Sinai only has a population of 800,000.

 

They have the opportunity to explain it by themselves.

 

First lets talk about your last statement.

A school boy said something in public that is new and revolutionary. A dude who was in that school event, went to his computer and wrote the whole idea. This guy published it later in a local newspaper of another city.

The school boy reached maturity and decided to write his idea to publish it.

People now think that the idea of this man- which was idealized by him years before when a school boy- is a copy of the publication made years ago by another person in another city.

Do you understand now?

To have a first publication of an idea doesn't necessarily mean that such is the original, and that other similar ideas published later are copies.

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Lets go now to your biblical verses.

You have mentioned Deuteronomy 20: 16-18

Notice that in the last verse, "that they teach you not to do according to all their abominations which they have done unto their gods, so ye should sin against the Lord your God."

In order to understand this order from YHWH elohim, we better explain it as an analogy, where current diseases will be used while current technology won't be applied.

The peoples living in Canaan used to have a rainbow color lines in their flag. So, the Israelites knew what that flag means, and they said, "oh no, God Almighty is right, these peoples commit abomination. Lets clean up this land from these corrupt people.

And, in those times weren't condoms to protect one from another, and men and women were carrying contagious diseases. Diseases passed to their children as today a mother passes AIDS to their new born children.

In those times weren't vaccines to protect decent people of being contagious of those diseases.

There was no other choice but to kill them all.

But, unfortunately committing abomination is a very contagious behavior, and the Children of Israel didn't obey the order of YHWH elohim. And they kill a lot of those populations but also they make deals with many of them, as many churches do with dudes who carry the rainbow flag.

And it happens that when they settled in Canaan, and they thought they did "a humanitarian service" keeping alive to the ones committing abomination, here is when a messenger of YHWH elohim came to them and told them that because they didn't obey, those peoples will be "as horns in your sides and their rainbow flag shall be a snare unto you".

And what the Children of Israel did? The Children of Israel lifted up their voice and wept.

Well, yes, it was a reason to kill everyone in those lands.

Actually this was a way to clean up territories. Remember that in those times there weren't big concentration camps, there weren't big ships and modern transportation, like the one used in Diego Garcia island by the US army to move the settlers against their will and transform that island in a huge military base.

Otherwise, the US army will simply kill all the inhabitants of that island and build the military base over the cadavers.

And, I know that even when you just have read what the US army did to those inhabitants taking their land to build a military base, you don't give a dime for what happened to them.

See? You criticize the biblical narration because the god mentioned in this book ordered the killing of men, women and children, but such is exactly what the US government, what the UK government, what the French government, and many other governments of the world which don't follow the bible as a guidance are doing, killing men, women and children.

And in many cases, they do it for similar reasons, for example to clean up the area in order to impose "democracy".

If you disagree with the god of the bible, you surely disagree with the US government, the UK government, and so forth.

Hope you are not a hypocrite who will condemn one and support the another.

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The same applies with your reference of the book of Samuel

1 Samuel 15:2-3, God commanded Saul and the Israelites, “This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'"

And look, the same disobedience is found in this part of the bible. The king Saul killed people like crazy but saved the cattle, the sheep and donkeys.

Samuel, who was blind because his age, heard the noise made by these animals, and after asking about it, Saul tried to save himself saying that his subordinates brought those animals for thanksgiving sacrifices. And Samuel told him that OBEDIENCE was more important than sacrifices. Saul was told that he won't be the king of the Children of Israel anymore.

You, questioning God and the bible are in a better position than the ones who gave their word to obey God and their word was not fulfilled.

Still, anyone can read that the attacks to God and the bible in this discussion come from people who support the same killings of men, women and children just by convenience. If those innocent people in Iraq weren't killed, you won't have cheap oil to fill up your car gas tank.

What about now? Do you want

1)- to restore what should be a compensation to those Iraqi families giving at least money from your pocket and let them be free to sell their oil at the price they want to charge? Or,

2)- you prefer to keep your mouth shut, enjoy your cheap gas prices, and enjoy a better life... at the cost of the suffering of others in several countries.

It is your choice, and if your choice is #1, then you can freely criticize the bible because your justice is even greater than the god of the bible.

On the other hand, if your choice is #2, then you are in the same boat, so keep rowing...

 

Does not change the fact you don't know anything about what is being discussed.

Let me ask you....as this would be the....CHRISTIAN THING....to do.

If you were interested in learning....I am qualified to teach you certai things and in return I will be sure to consider your Faith and Opinions with sincerity.

What do you say?

I think it's a lot more constructive than this back and forth.

AboveAlpha

 

So far, there are written records from Egyptian sources mentioning the plagues. And more, the manna of the Hebrews was called Ambrosia by the Greeks, and the description fits very well, the Greeks said that this "food from the gods" was a sweet, white compound raining from heaven. And these records belong to the same era when the biblical exodus happened.

How amazing is that three cultures.. oh... wait, four cultures, because the Arabians also mention the huge dark cloud over the horizon where the desert and Egypt are located... and more, the Mayans also mention the rising up of waters like walls, and... well, apparently for you this event of the Exodus is just a worldwide fable invented by several cultures of the world written or recorded in the same era.

About the diet of the Children of Israel, because you are incorrect that those were "Jews only". Jews belong to the tribe of Judah, and the Children of Israel were twelve tribes. You better update your brain about this family. There weren't Jews alone, there were twelve tribes, which are called the Children of Israel.

Well, they were carrying their belongings so they better saved the animals as a way of transportation, after all, the manna was enough to keep them alive and walking.

What the population of a place today is has nothing to do with the number of travelers passing thru those territories. In this aspect you are also out of touch with reality.

 

Google D-Wave Quantum Processors.

D-Wave builds Quantum Processors for use in Quantum Computers...and GOOGLE just bought one.

A Quantum Computer works with ALTERNATE VERSIONS OF ITSELF IN DIVERGENT UNIVERSAL REALITIES!!

If a Multiverse did not exist....Quantum Computers could not work.

There could be no QUANTUM SUPERPOSITION....no.....QUANTUM TELEPORTATION.....and OBSERVATION OF THE CONSTRUCTION OF A QUANTUM PROCESSOR would not stop it from working....which it does and that is why Quantum Processors must be ROBOTICALLY CONSTRUCTED IN CLEAN ROOMS as even the Observation of a FLY or INSECT is enough to make them not work.

If you Digitally Video a number of Quantum Systems being Robotically Assembled and never watched the tape they work.

Wait 4 years or 6 years....whatever...and watch the Digital Video.....ALL THOSE QUANTUM SYSTEMS WILL IMMEDIATELY CEASE TO FUNCTION!!!

We know this because we have tried it!!!!

A MULTIVERSE MUST EXIST FOR A QUANTUM COMPUTER TO EXIST AND WORK....and they do work and do exist and they are even for sale ONLINE...but you need a LOT of MONEY and you need to pass a lot of FBI, CIA, NSA, DIA...etc...background checks!!

AboveAlpha

 

1. If you are admitting the Bible is using earlier myths, I agree with you. We can therefore ignore the Torah as divinely inspired, or even inspired at all. Just a matter of stories.

2. There never was an invasion of Palestine by Joshua. The Hebrews were a tribe that rose to power in Canaan.

3. A Jew to lie with a woman of another tribe was forbidden. So why blame the woman?

4. The actions of man are not the actions of a God.

5. Kuwait was freed under a treaty with UK and USA.

5. The problem in the Middle East is Islam. There will never be peace while they fight each other. Iraq was given the chance of freedom. Look what happened. Given the opportunity they blew it. Hussein was known to have used chemical weapons on his own countrymen more than once. The Middle east could be a rich area if they only agreed with each other. There are many natural resources there that could be exploited and enrich the population.

 

The BIBLE both Old and New Testament did not even EXIST until a Biblical Canon was created by the Roman Emperor Constantine.

The Old Testamant was created by the Roman Imperial Biblical Canon by using the Torah.

The New Testament took much longer and if you ever wonder why only THE FAB FOUR......Matthew, Mark, Luke and John's Gospels were used and none of the other Apostles Gospels were used in the New Testament IS BECAUSE THEY CONTRADICTED EACH OTHER!!!

The FAB 4 wrote....and we are not even certain exactly what they wrote as not one single original Gospel exists as the Roman's killed the Authors of the Originals and burned the Gospels and then another Christian had to write a new Gospel FROM MEMORY and then that Author was killed and his version from memory of the Gospel was burned and then ANOTHER CHRISTIAN AUTHOR WROTE ANOTHER VERSION OF THE GOSPEL FROM MEMORY...and this went on and on and on SO WE HAVE COPIES OF COPIES OF COPIES MANY TIMES OVER EXCEPT THE NEWER COPIES HAD TO BE WRITTEN FROM MEMORY!!!

Anyway....the Roman Imperial Biblical Canon decided to use the FAB 4's Gospels or at least whoever was the last person to write it from memory because the FAB 4's Gospels stated Jesus was THE ACTUAL SON OF GOD.

The other 8 out of 12 Apostels Gospels which were chosen by the Roman Biblical Canon NOT to be included in the New Testament stated that...JESUS SAID THAT ALL MEN COULD BECOME THE SON'S OF GOD BY FOLLOWING HIS TEACHINGS!!!

But as I have stated...and anyone here can look this up......NOT ONE SINGLE ORIGINAL OR EVEN 10 TIMES REMOVED COPY RE-WRITTEN FROM MEMORY....EXISTS....as the Roman's burned them all and in most cases between 175 to over 200 years had passed and more where a COPY RE-WRITTEN BY THE 11TH TO IN SOME CASES 30TH TIME was used in the New Testament.

So in reality we really have no idea for certain exactly what the Apostles said about Jesus.

As well only a select approved number of BOOKS were allowed entry into the New Testament and one in particular was so hated by the Roman Imperial Biblical Canon as being too OLD TESTAMANT WRATH OF A MEAN SPIRITED GOD that it was REJECTED ENTRY INTO THE NEW TESTAMANT OVER 7 TIMES!!!

This most hated book was REVELATION which seems to have has several authors one being John of Patmos.

The Book of Revelation was finally voted into the New Tesament in 397 AD but the reasons for it being added to the New Testamant had NOTHING TO DO WITH THE VERASITY OF THE BOOK.....in fact many fought it's entry still and it was not included in the canon until 419 AD.

Reasons for it's continued rejection into the New Testament were everything from it's supposed JEWISHNESS but specifically the Canon was being FORCED TO ADMIT REVELATION into the Bible!!

WHY?

Because at that time and by 419 AD. the day's of a massive Roman Empire and Army were LONG GONE....so instead of an ARMY to bring wealth and CONTROL OVER EUROPE TO ROME...a system of RELIGION using the placement of Priests, Bishops, Cardinals and of course the POPE was a BRILLIANT CONCEPT in how RELIGIOUS CONTROL could be even mightier than MILITARY CONTROL.

The Forgiveness, Love, Peace, Hope and lack of anything stated by Jesus in a FIRE AND BRIMSTONE MANNER conflicted with the desire to exhert CONTROL....thus REVELATIONS WAS FINALLY ALLOWED INTO THE NEW TESTAMENT!!!

With REVELATION....the Roman Preists, Cardinals, Bishops and Pope developed a....RELIGIOUS DOGMA where they described that GOD WORKED THROUGH THEM thus defying a Preist, Bishop, Cardinal or the Pope was told to the people as DEFYING GOD HIMSELF!!! Ha! Himself! As if a GOD would have GENDER!!? LOL!!!

With Revelation came JUDGEMENT....and if a Man did not want to give up 60% of his hard worked and hard earned crops and cattle to the Local Bishop......WELL THEN....THAT MAN WAS DEFYING GOD and if he was defying GOD then that man must have SATAN WITHIN HIM!!!

What? Oh.....you don't have Satan in you?

Well there is one way to find out.....we will torture you until you confess then BURN YOU AT THE STAKE!!!

Now 100% of that mans Crops and Cattle go to the Bishop!!!

ANYONE ELSE HERE HAVE SATAN IN THEM?

No?


GOOOD!!!! NOW GIVE THE PREISTS ALL YOUR MONEY AND BY THE WAY THE LOCAL CARDINAL SAW IN A VISION FROM GOD THAT YOUR 13 YEAR OLD DAUGHTER MUST STUDY WITH HIM VERY NIGHT BETWEEN 7 PM AND 10 PM!!!

OH....and be certain she BATHES before coming!!!

AboveAlpha

 

I tnink you'll find the Tanakh as we know it was completed by circa 200 BCE, though it has been through various processes such as adding vowels etc. The Rabbi Jesus was able to quote many times from it, and Jews read from it regularly at the Synagogues. It may not have been a 'book' but scrolls, but nevertheless, I think complete.

 

The Torah is part of the Tanakh and the Old Testamant was created from the Tanakh.

In the Tanakh for exaple it states that Moses CROSSED THE YAM SUPH.....OR REED SEA OR SEAWEED SEA.

It say's this 23 TIMES.

The Roman Imperial Canon got it wrong as in the Tanakh it does not state that MOSES PARTED THE RED SEA....BECAUSE HE DIDN'T!!!

Moses CROSSED THE YAM SUPH OR REED SEA.....which is a shallow marshy reed and seaweed filled area between the Med Sea and the Red Sea.

There was never Moses standing with a staff commanding the Red Sea to part!! NEVER HAPPENED!!!

At low tide Moses and the Hebrews crossed this shallow marshy tidal area and the when the following Egyptian Army and it's Chariots crossed the tide just started to come back in which swamped the chariots and stranded men on small 10 foot to 20 feet across timy sand islands with reeds growing on them.

No Egyptian's died as 100 foot high walls of water came crashing down like it is show in the Charlton Heston Movie the Ten Commandments.

The Yam Suph or Reed Sea is only about 6 to 10 feet deep at high tide.

Moses and the Hebrews simply walked across it at low tide.

This was a massive error of Translation and even the Vatican had admitted it knows the story in the Bible is false but when the Vatican was asked why it is not changed to the facts the Pope replied....this is a very well loved story and to change it to the facts now after all these years would just confuse the faithful.

It never happened.

AboveAlpha

 

No offense, AboveAlpha, but you couldn't teach me what religion was from a hole in the wall.

 

I agree in the sense I don't believe the Pentateuch is anything more than stories written by scribes around the time of the Babylonian exile. No Moses or Exodus or Red/Reed sea. No evidence exists for any of it.

Why did Jesus, the teacher, mention the Tanakh with authority. Because, as an educated religious leader, he actually believed it. And he was religiously educated.

The Tanakh was in circulation before Jesus was born. Of course there were errors in it, and are still today - like the Bible.

 

Arrogance does not become a Christian. Your professorship is rescinded. Every Professor I know admits there are things still to be learned. And, yes, I know several Professors who are teachers/exteachers at a well known Education Establishment.

 

You really should get a grasp on when you are beaten. First you claim that evolution does not exist and did not realize that evolution is simply changes that happen as a function of mutation.

Now you accept that evolution happens but, are arguing that these genetic changes are always harmful.

While this is an equally nonsensical claim, there is no need to get into it because you have already ceded your original claim.

 

I'll bet it's not often she gets questions like those Much more likely she only has to deal with other believers who merely have denominational/doctrinal questions and concerns, members of her congregation who ask easy questions about how she and her church interpret various scriptures and what they think about certain issues, that sort of thing.

 

Funny fellow. You are not willing to accept that you have been proven wrong. Your denial of the fact that you can not accept you are wrong is the same as your denial of the facts presented in my post which you have completely ignored defaulting to an attempt to demonize the messenger rather than address the message.

There is no need for you to explain your errors because I have already done so in great detail.

I have not distorted what was presented in the article given. What I proved was how you distorted (or misread) the article and now you are trying to blame your errors on me.

 

How precious.

Hey, Prof. Do you still claim that an eclipse darkened the whole land for three hours (from the magical 6th hour until the 9th, no less) during an event alleged to have been taking place at Passover, i.e. during a full moon? I'm curious as to how you would reconcile that at this point.

 

I think what you are saying here may have some merit but fail to see what this has to do with a biblical valuation of life verses my valuation of life.

What is troubling is that you do not know what my valuation of life even is ?

I agree with much of what you are saying here but, none of what you say addresses a comparison of biblical valuation of life verses "my valuation" or any valuation, to be honest.

I agree that the OT Biblical valuation and todays valuation (or at least how it plays out in politics) are similar in that neither have much respect for life. This is not "MY" valuation as I do not like either as both show huge disrespect and intolerance for life. In addition both go against the primary message of Jesus. (The Golden Rule)

The Bible tells us that the words were from God and that it was God giving the orders.

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I do not accuse God for what Moses did. I do not believe that the Bible is an accurate representation of what God thinks. To take the Bible at face value would turn God into a hypocritical flip flopper with the most petty of human flaws and characteristics.

I simply to do not accept this perspective of God.



You just took a goof point.,

I do not know where you got this from but, I have studied the usage and origin of the term "Elohim" extensively and have never heard what you are claiming. Do you have any support for this claim ?

The "creator" God of the Israelites was "El, Ellil/Enlil" according to modern scholarship. YHWH was one of El's sons. There is often confusion over the type of monotheism practised at various times the Israelites.

The Israelites believed in the Pantheon (that there were other Gods). Their form of monotheism was such that YHWH was the only God that they worshiped.

There are apologists that try to explain away certain facets of Israelite belief in the Pantheon or "Divine Council" by claiming divine references actually referred to humans but such is wishful interpolation and not taken seriously by serious scholarship.

http://www.thedivinecouncil.com/DT32BibSac.pdf

This is a lengthy textual criticism (as genuine scholarship often is). One part I would urge you toward is Page 7 where comparisons of the same passage from 3 different OT versions is given. The first is the Masoretic text (written around 7-900 AD) and the other two are texts (Septuagint - LXX) dating before the time of Christ and what the early Christians would have been using and Qumran text which also dates before Christ.

Note how the belief in the existence of a Pantheon is edited out !

This link speaks directly to the apologists claiming some instances of where "Elohim" might refer to earthly rulers.
http://www.thedivinecouncil.com/ElohimAsGodsFSB.pdf

Heiser explains how the belief in the existence of a Pantheon does not mean the YHWH religion was polytheistic.

Here is a good article from the "Journal of Hebrew Scriptures" which discusses "El" as the speaking voice and head of the Divine council in Psalm 82. http://www.jhsonline.org/Articles/article_144.pdf

The Bible has been altered so many times by the hand of man that, even if there was some inspired stuff, that stuff has long been lost in the cacophony of human dogma.

We do not know for sure what God thinks. Not from the Viking stories, not from the Greek stories, and certainly not from the Bible stories.

You had to go to Malachi 4 to find something that validates your claim ? Not that this passage even does that. This passage does not claim that punishment will be eternal and Jews believe no such thing. The passage is talking about punishment for evil in this life which is a common OT theme.

The Israelites did not have a messiah who guaranteed eternal life.

 

That would be a true statement to all of humanity.

 

Prove it.

 

Prove what?

 

Your comment about Adam and Eve.

 

We have fossil evidence that death was a feature of the world long before humans hit the scene. This contradicts the Adam and Eve story, which blames all of the world's ills on the fable that our nudist ancestors ate magic fruit from a talking snake.