Conversation with a Pastor

This is pretty simple. New genetic data is genetic data that could be created by old genetic data that already exists - similar to what was found recently in the human genome that scientists mistakenly misunderstood as new data (http://genetics.thetech.org/original_news/news148).

New information is new beneficial functionality added to a host where no prior data is found.

 

Atavism

 

The red T in the diagram isn't a gene but Thymine, a nucleic acid, which is one of the building blocks of DNA. The link you provided is next to useless in this discussion.

 

Atavism is evidence that information is stored in DNA. It proves my point better than it proves evolution.

 

I ignored your diagram because it was irrelevant. You asked for my opinions on how "new information" and "new genetic data" are different, and I gave you my opinions and the source for my opinions. Nothing else really needs to be said here.

 

Opinions aren't always fact. At worse less than truthful.

 

Good point. Evolutionary throwbacks. The animal kingdom is full of them.

 

Nor to Prof QChan who, as always, thinks he knows better

 

QChan quote

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Insertion mutations actually add information.

 

Here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atavism

 

An excellent example of Atavism would be two parents with brown eyes producing a child with blue eyes. This isn't rocket science, folks.

 

Duh.............

 

Evolutionarily, traits that have disappeared phenotypically do not necessarily disappear from an organism's DNA. The gene sequence often remains, but is inactive. Such an unused gene may remain in the genome for many generations.[4] As long as the gene remains intact, a fault in the genetic control suppressing the gene can lead to it being expressed again. Sometimes, the expression of dormant genes can be induced by artificial stimulation.
Atavisms have been observed in humans as well. Babies have been born with a vestigial tail, called "coccygeal process", "coccygeal projection", and "caudal appendage".[2] Atavism can also be seen in humans who possess large teeth, like those of other primates.[5] In addition, a case of "Snake Heart", the presence of "coronary circulation and myocardial architecture [which resemble] those of the reptilian heart", has also been reported in medical literature.[6]

Examples of observed atavisms in animals include:

Hind legs on whales[2] or snakes
Hind fins on dolphins[2]
Extra toes on horses, as in archaic horses[7]
Re-emergence of sexual reproduction in the flowering plant Hieracium pilosella and the Crotoniidae family of mites.[8]
Teeth in chickens[9]
Supernumerary nipples on higher primates

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atavism.

 

Umm... This doesn't disprove what I just said.

 

Simple genetics not Atavism. Blue eyes are recessive compared to brown eyes but everyone has genes for both traits. That's why brown eyed parents can have blue eyed children.

Atavism is due to gene mutation. See the difference?

 

All of the above is pure and simple superfluous hypotheses, nothing factually proved as real.

 

Very well, so lets compare the biblical way of valuate life with your way of valuate life, and lets see if yours is better.

You follow -as I do- what the US government does- you might do it because you agree with its methods, I do it because I have no choice, one can go against its own government, one can't intervene against the government policies because can be prosecutes, arrested, and so forth. Still, I must consent with a protest because to me such policies are unjust.

However, for the majority of Americans, supporting the troops is a must.

In the invasion to Iraq in the 90's, the US army retreat after taking control of most of the territory of this Middle East country. The reason was because there was a doubt is Saddam Hussein had chemical weapons that he could use as a final desperate defense. Everybody disagree with president Bush (Senior) for such retreat.

When the "allies" left Iraq, they left the whole potable system in ruins, and tens of thousands of children died because there was no safe water to drink, and they just were drinking any water available even if it was contaminated. This is besides of the tens of thousands of civilians killed in different towns.
And the worst, Kuwait was indeed a historical part of Iraq, the same as Hawaii has become a historical part of the US.

Then, if by any reason a king in Hawaii manages to free his island from the US, and the US recovers it back by force, and the entire world supports the king instead of the US, here you have an idea of what happened over there in the 90's. I tell you this, because in Kuwait there is no a democratic government, however, no one knows how the hell the US help it to be apart of Iraq. A great contradiction of what the US policies are.

So, lets continue. The second invasion to Iraq, killed thousands of civilians again, solely to take prisoner to one man. What a ridiculous event. This was a massacre, because it was made by bombing cities day and night without stop. I wonder why all the Iraqi survivors of the daily bombings and battle confrontations do not show after war syndrome, they appear to have recovered of the terrible days being under daily fire. However, the invaders, the US troops coming back home, they do show after war syndrome, they become alcoholic, they beat their wives and children, they kill themselves, and so forth.

Well, definitively, the invasions to Iraq from the US army, wasn't a war troops against troops, but both invasions were US troops against troops and civilians.

Most of Americans put stickers in their bumpers supporting the wars.

In Numbers 31, God told Moses to avenge the Children of Israel attacking the Midianites. In no parts it says that God told Moses to kill women and children.

In Deuteronomy 2 the same is read, that God commanded Moses to attack the Midianites, but no order of killing women and children was given. Such was the decision made by Moses.

So, tell me now, what is the difference of Moses' way of valuating life in comparison with today's non-biblical way of valuating like.

Remember that what you read is what Moses decided to do, because you don't read that God told Moses to kill women and children. If you want to complaint about the biblical narration, you can do that, but it wasn't God who gave that order, Deuteronomy 2 says it was Moses decision.

Well, I will tell you this, Moses himself didn't fulfill his intentions, because we see a war against Midianites in the book of Judges, so....

Oh, OK, yes, you might be right, it is not only the "action" but the "intention". Moses tried to exterminate the Midianites killing women and children, but apparently didn't work.

Still, do not accuse God for what Moses did, unless you find in the bible that such order of killing women and children was ordered by God. You can't blame the bible when you read that king David sent to death one man in order to take his wife, such are actions made by men, not so orders made by God.

You just took a goof point.,

When you read these words together "YHWH elohim" in the Tanach and any bible (the Lord God), it means that those orders come from the supreme creator. When you read the word "elohim" (god) alone, it can be a judge, a powerful man, a spirit, etc.

So, when you claim that the entire bible is not "the word of God", your position sounds logical, because the entire bible is not the word of God, there are parts that are history, there are songs, there are proverbs, and there is the "word of YHWH elohim" (the word of the Lord God) as well.

Look, there is no doubt that when YHWH elohim (the Lord God/Almighty) says something, and you hear or read those words, then you know the thoughts of YHWH elohim (the Lord God/Almighty).

Otherwise, how the heck you will know what he thinks?

Simple. He claims that his words must be obeyed, and this is in several places in the bible. And he established that the ones who disobey will be killed and will die forever. You can find it in the very first verses of the bible with the disobedience of Adam, the first man.

You can find it thru the prophets, when they said, "this is what YHWH elohim says..." and they start warning people to obey their god otherwise curse will come to them.

A prophecy that the evil men will die and become ashes (burnt and destroyed forever) and the righteous will even dance over their ashes:

Malachi 4

 

In the book of Numbers:

Numbers begins at Mount Sinai, where the Israelites have received their laws and covenant from God and God has taken up residence among them in the sanctuary.[2] The task before them is to take possession of the Promised Land. The people are numbered and preparations are made for resuming their march. The Israelites begin the journey, but they "murmur" at the hardships along the way, and about the authority of Moses and Aaron. For these acts, God destroys approximately 15,000 of them through various means.

Deuteronomy was written after the Babylonian exile by the Levites.

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Further,

The book of Numbers has a long and complex history, but its final form is probably due to a Priestly redactiob... editing) of a Yahwistic original text some time in the early Persian period (5th century BCE).

And the last 5 chapters are concerned with land: instructions for the extermination of the Canaanites and how the Promised Land is to be divided.,

 

All your examples don't excuse God from ordering the destruction of men, women and children.

1 Samuel 15:2-3, God commanded Saul and the Israelites, “This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'"

Deut. 20:16-18.

Still as the Tanakh wasn't written until the time of the exile in Babylon, as most prophecy is either history (written after the event) and much of the rest is not WHAT WILL INEVITABLY HAPPEN - but - WHAT WILL HAPPEN IF YOU CONTINUE IN THE WAY YOUR GOING.
As there is no evidence for Adam and Eve,Noah and the flood except earlier stories, of Abraham, Moses, the exodus of 2 million Hebrews, and the commandments are mainly copies of older codes of practice.............................. it really doesn't matter.

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So you accept evolution?

 

Your take on the educational aspect is obvious. Ignorance is bliss, don't cha know? Ignor-ance, the act of intentional blindness to facts.

 

That god would not tolerate those who would murmur. Quite the murderous bastard this god, created by the brains of man,huh? And yet people would worship such a murderous thug? Many of his actions sound more like what one would expect of satan. Probably was satan who was deceiving those people.

An atheist has greater morality than that god.

 

I guess that you better be more specific in your message, because it is easy to post general information.

Try to do as trevorw2539 does, trevorw2539 is making a good discussion, he is hitting the target very well.

So far, his Numbers 31 and Deuteronomy 2 didn't work. It wasn't God who ordered those killings of women and children.

However, he just hit a good point with Samuel 15.

I will review it and check what was going on.

So far, he has evaded to respond in his message that his (*) method of valuate life also stinks, and that he is not better than the biblical narration. In other words, for trevorw2539 to be with a god or without a god won't change his way of valuate life, which won't care much for humans. I don't think that he was sorry about those tens of thousands children killed in Iraq.

Neither you Margot2. I don't think that both wrote at least a complaint against the US government murdering of women and children in Iraq.

How in the world you want to judge the bible when your way of valuating like also sucks, that is some irony from your part.

(* his, he, represents the current non-religious people)

 

You are making a lot of assumptions about the way that trevor2539 and other non-religious folks valuate life.

 

It doesn't really matter what they think. If you believe killing is wrong, and the Bible endorses killing, the Bible is also wrong. More so, since it actually claims to be a moral authority.

God killed everyone with the flood. Women, children, elderly, animals, everyone...

God commanded Israeli and Hebrew kings and generals to kill those who do not believe in him.

God destroys Sodom and Gomorrah because they don't live according to his idea of right.

God kills the Egyptians for the sake of his own chosen killers.

I'm not sure what others think, but if you endorse the Bible, then you don't endorse human life. If you endorse human life than you don't endorse the Bible. And you have to realize that you can't pick and chose. If you can change religion to suit your general character, then there is no religion, just your own perception of right and wrong.